Speaker 1:
From the library of the New York Stock Exchange at the corner of Wall and Broad Streets in New York City, you're Inside the ICE House, our podcast from Intercontinental Exchange on markets, leadership, and vision and global business, the dream drivers that have made the NYSC an indispensable institution of global growth for over 225 years.
Each week, we feature stories of those who hatch plans, create jobs, and harness the engine of capitalism right here, right now at the NYSC, and at ICE's exchanges and clearinghouses around the world. Now, welcome Inside the ICE House. Here's your host, Josh King of Intercontinental Exchange.
Josh King:
There's an inherent injury risk when playing sports. I think about it every time I head down a mountain at high speed, strapped to two pieces of wood, fiberglass, and steel. Whether professionally or recreationally, the threat of ligament tearing or bone breaking is always there.
According to the National Safety Council, 3.6 Million people were treated in emergency departments for sports-related injuries in 2022. Sometimes, the cure was a cast. Other times, more invasive measures were needed to fix the problem. But whenever adversity was faced, it eventually healed, and those sidelined athletes made their way back to the sport they loved.
But what if that adversity never went away? What if instead of dealing with something they could recover from, a passionate sportsman was faced with not only missing the game they love but losing the ability to live their life the way they always have?
Our guest today, Jeremy Poincenot, knows better than most the struggles of dealing with life-changing adversity. As a nineteen-year-old sophomore at San Diego State, Jeremy noticed while walking on campus that he was having difficulty reading a sign in front of him. With 20/20 vision for the first two decades of his life, this sudden change prompted surprise and stress. Soon, he was legally blind.
Jeremy was diagnosed with Leber's hereditary optic neuropathy, or LHON, a disease passed down by the mother. Most people with LHON may never know they're carriers of it because 50% of males and over 80% of females with the mutation never experience any symptoms. Instantaneously, Jeremy, who's an avid golfer, had his life changed. Golf, a game that requires one to read greens, read holes, shoot directionally, and hit a less than two-inch ball in diameter resting on the ground was so commonplace in Jeremy's life before the diagnosis. Yet, moments right after it, he faced the ultimate unfortunate scenario that one of his passions could be taken away in the blink of an eye, as it were.
In today's episode, we're going to go in-depth on Jeremy's diagnosis and talk about the struggles and challenges and then triumphs of going from a life with clear vision to now one without it. We're also going to discuss how he navigated these challenges and now not only continues his passion of golf but reached new heights in the sport as a champion. Our conversation with Jeremy Poincenot is coming up right after this.
Speaker 3:
Connecting the opportunity is just part of the hustle.
Speaker 4:
Opportunity is using data to create a competitive advantage.
Speaker 5:
It is raising capital to help companies change the world.
Speaker 6:
It's making complicated financial concepts seem simple.
Speaker 7:
Opportunity is making the dream of homeownership a reality.
Speaker 8:
Writing new rules and redefining the game.
Speaker 9:
And driving the world forward to a greener energy future.
Speaker 10:
Opportunity is setting a goal.
Speaker 11:
And charting a course to get there.
Speaker 3:
Sometimes, the only thing standing between you and opportunity is someone who can make the connection.
Speaker 12:
At ICE, we connect people to opportunity.
Josh King:
Welcome back Inside the ICE House. Remember, please, to subscribe wherever you listen and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts so other folks know where to find this show. Our guest today, Jeremy Poincenot, is an inspirational speaker, coach, and a three-time world blind golf champion.
Jeremy was diagnosed with Leber's hereditary optic neuropathy, or LHON, became legally blind as a 19-year-old sophomore while at San Diego State University in 2008. Jeremy, I just saw you speak before hundreds of people in the boardroom at the Fixed Income and Data Services Sales Kickoff at Intercontinental Exchange. You had the room with standing ovation and captivated for an hour in your presentation. Now, I just have you solo. It's so great to have you Inside the ICE House.
Jeremy Poincenot:
Thank you so much for having me.
Josh King:
A little bit of this backstory about what brings you to 11 Wall Street, the New York Stock Exchange, today for the first time. You're almost 3000 miles from home in San Diego. Why show up here in New York?
Jeremy Poincenot:
I go where they tell me to go. Chris Edmonds is a friend. He saw me speak in June last year and reached out and asked if I would speak at this event. I go where they tell me to go.
Josh King:
How did this relationship with Chris evolve? Because basically, he was just a guy seeing your talk.
Jeremy Poincenot:
He was. You're right. It's really a matter of the audience member. If they come to me and they want to start a relationship and keep in touch, I'm happy to do so. I'm pretty easy to get in touch with on social media or via email. That's what Chris did. He reached out to me via email. We kept in touch. That's how the relationship started. We'll continue to go. Just keeping in touch with him. I mean, I speak in front of tens of thousands of people a year. Whoever really wants to keep a relationship going... They can find me.
Josh King:
How many talks do you usually do a week? What's your average pace at this?
Jeremy Poincenot:
I say I do about two a month. I don't do a bunch. I probably do 25 a year, is the cadence I'm at. I like it. I've got a family. I've got two young boys. That's the cadence that I like. But I go where they tell me to go. I'm very happy with it.
Josh King:
Last year's PGA Championship took place at Oak Hill Country Club in Rochester, New York. The tournament start was delayed two hours because of frost. Now, we had almost a nor'easter coming on New York this weekend. I was upstate. We got about eight inches of snow. First time we saw a good dousing of the white stuff. But how does it feel to actually be working in colder climes compared to your usual milieu in Southern California?
Jeremy Poincenot:
Yeah. I'm never disappointed to get on a plane to go home. It's never a difficult time to go to the terminal to fly back to San Diego. But I love exploring. I love being in different places. You better believe I had some New York pizza last night.
Josh King:
Which one did you go to?
Jeremy Poincenot:
I got Joe's delivered.
Josh King:
Oh, excellent.
Jeremy Poincenot:
That's what the lady at the front desk said. "That's what we get." I handed her my phone. I said, "Order it. Uber Eats for me, please." She did. I got Joe's. Scarfed about half of that down last night.
Josh King:
Let's start with your golf and your journey growing up. I heard some of this just now in the boardroom. But your dad, Lionel, worked in the golf industry for decades, including 10 years with Callaway, which I have to acknowledge is proudly listed here on the New York Stock Exchange under the ticker symbol MODG. But among the Poincenot children, as the oldest of three, you were the only one drawn to the sport. What got you interested in it? What memories come to mind when thinking of those first few rounds?
Jeremy Poincenot:
Yeah. I'm a Callaway fan myself. I play with Callaway Clubs. I know Chip Brewer, the CEO. I think he's fantastic. I'll start with saying that. My dad was in the golf industry for 30 years, working in R&D. He was developing clubs. I would see my dad every Friday go play with his friends/play this sport. I was like, "How do I get involved with that? I want to be with Dad. What's he doing?" I learned about the game. It was like I had to go play on executive courses and learn the game and learn the etiquette before I could ever play with him and his friends. But that was the ultimate goal, was to get to play with him and his buddies.
I remember getting to be able to do that and just being like, "Oh, wow. I'm with the grownups. I'm probably too young for this. But this is a really cool experience to watch how they interact." I feel like that's given me my quick wit, and humor, and sarcasm; is playing golf with my dad and his buddies and seeing how they interact. I think that if you're a good golfer and you grew up golfing, I think it makes you a little bit of an extrovert. It makes you quick-witted. I love people who are quick-witted. We could just have a good banter back and forth.
Josh King:
In various athletic pursuits with my own son, whether it's ping pong or skiing or anything else that we do, the father goes from being the teacher to the student or the second fiddle. At what point did you and your dad cross over in terms of skill, or does he still have your number?
Jeremy Poincenot:
No. We crossed over when I was in high school. I was in varsity three years. I was playing five days a week, when I was in high school. He's working. There's no way he could really compete with me. I got down to a three-handicap in high school. He was probably a six or seven at that point.
I had his number for a good amount of time when I was playing five days a week. I should at that point. Now, I'm a nine and a half. He's probably a low nine. He and I have good battles. But now I'm married with two kids. He's retired. He's golfing at least once a week and trying to get me out there. I'm not able to get out and play with him as much as I'd like. It's funny how life works. There's seasons and whatnot. But playing golf with my dad, where we'll each play our own ball or in tournaments when he's guiding me for our ball or my ball, whatever you want to say, it's the coolest moments and the best memories to look back on, for sure.
Josh King:
The first few times I watched tournaments on television, I saw people like Jack Nicklaus, Tom Watson, among others. With it being such a big part of your life and your dad working in the industry, did you have any golfing idols that you watched and wanted to mimic growing up?
Jeremy Poincenot:
Yeah. In high school, I was a big Sergio Garcia fan. I loved his flair. We all know the shot that he hit. He runs and does the scissor kick, looking over the hill to see where it went. I liked that. I was drawn to that because in golf, it's very bland sometimes. It's fun to have a little bit of motion/a little zest in it. I was drawn to Sergio when I was in high school. I played in a golf tournament with Ricky Fowler when I was in high school. He and I are the same age. He grew up in San Diego area. I just-
Josh King:
Was Ricky always wearing the hats like that?
Jeremy Poincenot:
No, no. He wasn't in high school. I think that kicked up when he joined Puma and was sponsored by them. But he was incredible then. Everybody knew he was going to be the man, and he was. I was good, but I wasn't great. There was a lot of great golfers in Southern California. I was good. I was really good, like I said, down to a three. But that's not going to get you a D1 college scholarship.
Josh King:
When you think of golf on the West Coast. Obviously, the course that immediately comes to mind is Pebble Beach. I want to listen to a 15-time major tournament winner, a guy named Tiger Woods, describe what makes that iconic course along the Pacific so special.
Tiger Woods:
Well, I think Pebble Beach is an iconic venue because it's right on the ocean. On top of that, it probably has the most historic and pictured 18th hole. If anyone ever sees that photo of the 18th tee box all the way to the hole, you know what it is? People who've never played the game... They know exactly what that is. Pebble Beach... You can go five to seven under par in the first seven holes and get off to quick starts. Then, you're holding onto dear life coming home. I usually played Pebble well. Well, especially in 2000. I played it really well.
Speaker 15:
Tiger Woods is the 100th US Open champion in history.
Josh King:
That little clip at the end, that announcer is from Tiger's record-setting 2000 US Open win at Pebble, shooting 12 under par. Only golfer, I think, to be under par, winning by 15 strokes. Have you had the chance to play Pebble? Did you find it as challenging to every golfer beside Tiger?
Jeremy Poincenot:
Yeah. I've gotten to play Pebble twice. I'm very grateful for those experiences. One time, my dad was guiding me and was along for the ride. The other time, I played with him. It's an amazing place. I love the course. Like he said, the first few holes are rather easy. They're not too difficult. You're like, "Oh, wow. This is a very gettable course." Then, it bites you. But holes six, seven, and eight are maybe the coolest, nicest, most beautiful three holes of golf anywhere in the world. Six to par five, seven, the short par, three, and eight to par four that you're basically hitting over the Pacific Ocean for your second shot... It's absolutely beautiful. I'm legally blind. I can't see all of it perfectly. But it's one of the most picturesque, most beautiful courses in the world, for sure.
Josh King:
We are going to get into how you play golf and the unique challenge that you face in some depth. But as we're on the matter of Pebble and hitting over the ocean, does the appreciation of wind increase or decrease with your condition? Are you better at feeling the way it is on your cheek versus other ways in which golfers throw a piece of grass up in the air and watch what happens?
Jeremy Poincenot:
Yeah. I don't know. That's a good question. But I think I maybe doubt myself. The wind on the cheek... I want confirmation from my dad as my guy to be like, "Hey, I feel it into the face. But do you think it's swirling at all?" I use him as a sounding board to say, "Hey, is this as strong into the wind as we think? Do we want to club up one club/two clubs? You tell me." I always want him to validate what I'm thinking and feeling before I commit to a shot. I'll run everything by him before I fully commit to something.
Josh King:
We're going to unwind a little bit so people appreciate how a guy like Jeremy Poincenot deals with a course like Pebble Beach. Let's go to your sophomore year at San Diego State. You were a brother at the Phi Sigma Epsilon fraternity. You were studying international business. Did you think there was a lot of future for you in golf were you focused on letting that business degree lead you down a new path?
Jeremy Poincenot:
Yeah. I did not see a future in golf, competitively, at the level it is now. But I wanted to work in the golf industry. That was the thought and the hope. I wanted to maybe work in sales or marketing for Callaway, for instance. That was what I wanted to do. But golf was just a fun hobby at that point. I would play with buddies. But when you're in a fraternity in college, golf is not in the forefront of your mind.
Every once in a while, we'd get out and play. I did early my sophomore year take a golf class. Once a week, we would go to the golf course, and we got to play. That was really fun. But, no, I didn't have any aspirations of competitive golf. It was just to play with friends. Maybe work in the golf industry was what I was hoping for in my sophomore year of college. Those were the aspirations I had.
Josh King:
15 years ago, around Thanksgiving, your sophomore year, 2008, you're walking on campus. You feel those initial symptoms and, for the first time, as you talked about in your Ted Talk, had to squint to see this sign on campus. We've all walked across campuses. We've all seen signs that we can begin to make out. "Oh, yeah. Now, they're coming into crisp focus." Take us back to that moment. What's going through your mind? Suddenly, you're having trouble with what the rest of us say, "Oh, I'm going to see that sign eventually. It's going to come right up in my face.
Jeremy Poincenot:
Yeah. I was walking around with buddies, noticed I had to squint to read a sign, and just thought, "Okay, I've got a roommate who needs glasses. Maybe it's my time. I'm 19. Okay. If I need glasses, I need glasses." I thought nothing of it. I thought I just needed to see an optometrist, get glasses, and move on. I did what any 19-year-old would do. I called my mom. I had her set up the optometrist appointment. I went and saw the optometrist. It wasn't until he had me cover my left eye that I really realized something was going on here 'cause I covered my left eye and, with my right eye, I couldn't see anything on the eye chart. I couldn't even see the big E. I thought, "Okay." Even at that time, I thought, "Okay, maybe I just need some thick glasses." But the optometrist was a lot more concerned than I was. That's when things really started to get pretty heavy. It all happened pretty quick.
Josh King:
You talked about this a little bit in the boardroom with a group that I just saw you talk in front of. But as you mentioned, LHON affects about one in 50,000 people. In fact, they never experienced vision loss and probably don't even know they have it. It's a disease with no cure/no treatment. Prior to first getting diagnosed with it, did you ever hear of it or have any idea that it existed?
Jeremy Poincenot:
No. No. Never heard of it in my life. I maybe knew one person who was visually impaired in my fifth-grade class. That was it in my entire life. I think I also had a distant relative who was legally blind. But I didn't know what it was from exactly and didn't care to research too much. I was young and just thought, "Okay." But, no, I had never heard of LHON and was not aware of it at all.
Josh King:
I remember you telling us just a little while ago what the initial thought was the first time you got looked at, but it's a difficult disease to diagnose. Requires a bunch of exams and tests to determine if you've got LHON. For you as the patient, how difficult was it dealing with all the unknowns and all those incorrect and really dire diagnoses before the doctors finally came to the correct conclusion?
Jeremy Poincenot:
I was numb. I was numb with it all. I had a catheter put in my hand for five days 'cause they thought I had something called optic neuritis. They said that inflammation would go down, and I would be able to see again. I told all my fraternity brothers that this was all a fluke and I would see again. We'd laugh about this one day. I got a spinal tap done. Then, I had a catheter in my jugular for 10 days as they did something called plasmapheresis and said that that would be a cure and would fix things 'cause they thought I had something else. They were all incorrect.
It was really my mom, who had been doing tons of research, who practically diagnosed me with LHON and brought it to doctors and said, "This is what I think my son has based on the research I've been doing." Doctors were saying, "No, no, it's too rare. I doubt it's that and stick to marketing," 'cause she was in marketing. But she was right.
To answer your question, I was numb. I thought I was living a nightmare. I thought, at some point, I would probably wake up, open my eyes, and it was all a nightmare. But, no, it was a nightmare I was living. It was very real. But I felt numb to it all. I really wasn't too in it. I guess it was just like everything was like, "Oh, that's an incorrect diagnosis. That's a misdiagnosis. Okay, that's another one. Oh, you want a catheter in my jugular? Sure, go at it." I was pretty apathetic because I was at a loss with the whole thing.
Josh King:
You were removed from school for a while, or how long did this process take from feeling like you got to investigate this to the diagnosis? How much did it impair where you were at that point in your life?
Jeremy Poincenot:
Yeah. I had to step away from everything. I was taking five classes at San Diego State. We had to email somebody to let them know that I wasn't able to attend classes anymore. I had to take incompletes in all of those classes. If I wanted to return, I had 365 days to reach back out to those professors and find ways to finish them, which I ended up doing. But I really took a step back from everything. I took time off from school and was away from my friends and fraternity brothers. It was a lot at 19 years old, in the prime of my life. Everything was going great and fantastic to, all of a sudden, I'm becoming legally blind. That happened over a two-month period. But I also didn't know what this diagnosis was. Was I going to become totally blind? Will it impair other aspects of my life? Which I now know the answer to. But at that time, I had no idea. I was just in this purgatory of... Where is everything going to take me? So far, I don't like it.
Josh King:
You showed us a clip of one of your World Blind Golf Championship moments where you hold one out from... I can't remember how many yards off the green. But it went right in the cup. Then, your dad flips his hat to you, and you catch it. That caused you some anxiety afterward. For people listening to understand what LHON really is and how it affects you, from visual impairment to total blindness, where is your vision on that spectrum? Can you describe what you see when you and I are sitting across the table?
Jeremy Poincenot:
I have no central vision. I'm missing everything in the middle. I tell people to put one hand on top of the other, put them directly in front of their face, and that's what my sight's like. I say my vision is similar to a donut. I have the whole donut part. I have the top, the sides, the bottom. I'm missing the big donut hole in the middle. Everything I look directly at is completely blurred out. To somewhat see you better, I need to look above, below, or to the sides.
But I lived the first 19 years of my life of knowing what normal is like, or at least what it's like to have perfect 20/20 vision. I put this blur on your face to make you feel comfortable because although I might see you better like this, I feel extremely uncomfortable. In the back of my brain, it's saying, "Hey, bring it down. Bring it down." I do that to make it normal for everybody else. But it also makes things a little more incognito. You can't tell that I'm legally blind when you first meet me. I get around pretty well. I'm also not afraid to ask for help when I need it.
Josh King:
I want to get to asking for help 'cause that's such a essential part of your thesis. But to make yourself comfortable in a room like we are today, you walk in with Chris Edmonds. You take stock of the library here to make a mental note of the atmospherics/the person you're sitting across from.
Jeremy Poincenot:
Yeah. Yeah. I don't have the details. I see a screen there. But I don't know exactly what's there. It looks like a QR code. I got an idea of what's in here. But I can't tell you the distinct details. If you were to say, "Oh, there's a book there," okay, maybe. But I have no idea. When we sit down and I hear your voice, I'm honing in on your voice. I'm looking in your vicinity. I know that I make really good eye contact for someone who's visually impaired.
When I first lost my sight, it was horrendous. I spent too much time looking above people. I remember early on, after I lost my sight and I went back to school, I remember being at a party and talking to a girl and saying, "Hey, how's it going?" She's like, "What are you looking at?" I'm like, "What do you mean?" She's like, "You keep looking over my head." I'm like, "Ah, man." There was a wall behind her. There was nothing behind her. I told her I was legally blind. But at that time, I didn't like telling anybody. To have that experience, I was mortified.
Now, I don't care. Let's laugh about it. I would laugh about it. It's okay. But now, I also look at it from the positive side. I think I'm a lot better listener post-sight loss than I was when I was fully sighted. I think I'm a better listener as someone who's visually impaired than most people who are fully sighted because I'm not as visually distracted. If something happens to our side here or someone moves or someone does something, I'm honed in on you, what you have to say, and I'm listening to what you have to say, which makes me a better listener and, I think, makes me a better conversationalist.
Josh King:
Talked about in the intro how LHON is hereditary. You get it from your mother, typically. When you first received the diagnosis, did you and your parents look back at your family heritage and try to figure out how the mutation got passed down from your mom and ultimately to you and figure out where the origin was?
Jeremy Poincenot:
Yeah. My mom did. I mean, my mom's really intelligent, really smart. She's amazing. She's not the type of person to wallow and feel depressed about something. She's the type of person who rolls her sleeves up and gets after it. Like I said, she was doing tons of research, practically diagnosing me with LHON.
Then, when I was correctly diagnosed with LHON, she was going up and down the maternal bloodline and finding out if anyone else had lost sight from this. I think she had a distant relative who said, "Oh, my great-uncle lost his sight due to something. Are you talking about that?" She's like, "Well, this is the first I'm hearing about this." I'm the first person in my family to be diagnosed with LHON. But now that I am, we can go up and down the maternal bloodline and know who carries it. My mom is in her 60s. She carries it and hasn't lost sight. Knock on wood. Hopefully, she doesn't. I have a little sister who's three years younger. I have a little brother who's six years younger. They all carry it. That's how LHON is transmitted and passed down.
Josh King:
Once the diagnosis was confirmed, you had to undergo a lot of changes, obviously, physically in how you managed around in your environment. But mentally, what were some of the initial struggles and challenges like?
Jeremy Poincenot:
Oh, man. No. Yeah. I was very depressed because, for 19 years, I knew what I could do. I knew what normal was. I knew I was gaining my independence as a 19-year-old. I feel like I had to grow up a second time. We all grew up from adolescence to teenager to an adult. All of a sudden, here I am, a 19-year-old young adult to, all of a sudden, I feel like I have to grow up all over again, learn what it's like now to be a visually impaired young adult. How do I do things? Things that were easy, like crossing the street, and I could really jaywalk and just make it happen post-sight loss, I was petrified to cross the street on my own. It was something that I would've never thought of that I would be nervous to cross the street, and I was.
Things that would come easy before were extremely challenging now. Things like going into the grocery store... You just go do that independently. You get the items you need and go home. Now, it was so daunting. I didn't know where to start. Everything seemed impossible.
I went through the stages of grief. I first started with denial. I denied that what had happened had actually happened. I went to anger. I was mad. I was mad at what had happened. I went to bargaining. I pleaded. I said, "Please, whatever it takes to make things go back to the way they were, I'll do it. I thought I was a good guy before. I'll be even nicer. Whatever I need to do. Please, I'll take my sight back for whatever it takes. I'll do it." Then, I went to the fourth stage, which is very easy to get into. We don't talk about enough. It's depression. I was there for over a year, just depressed with my situation, thought, "Why me?" all the time, couldn't comprehend it, didn't understand it. There wasn't a reasoning behind it that I could justify or understand.
Then, after a long period of time... Research says it takes, on average, two years to go from a traumatic life experience to reaching the fifth stage, and that's acceptance. I'd say it took probably a year and a half for me to get to acceptance. But I finally accepted it. It's my new reality, my new normal. I'm Jeremy Poincenot. I'm legally blind, but being legally blind doesn't define me in a negative way. It is just a new part of my life. I'm legally blind, just like I'm a brunette. It is what it is. I'm completely comfortable with it now. But it's been 15 years.
Josh King:
What finally made you able to say, "Time to start a new chapter. I'm going to attack each day"?
Jeremy Poincenot:
It was gradual. It was gradual. It's not a linear process of the stages of grief. You popcorn around. In denial. You're in depression. Then, you go back to anger. You go to bargaining. But I went from having no good days a week to... I would just celebrate having one good day a week. Then, a couple of weeks later, I'd have two good days that week. It was like, "Wow. I didn't even know that was possible anymore." Then, time would go by. It'd be three good days in a week. Then, the next week, it would be only one. But it was a gradual process to finally reaching a point where I had more good days than bad days.
It was like, "You know what? I'm going to be able to live a good life even though I'm legally blind." Because even though, when I first lost my sight, I thought that was an impossibility, all of a sudden, it's like, "You know what? This is becoming my..." I think when there's time and space from something, you start to feel normal about things. That's what it was. When I first lost my sight, I hated it. Didn't like anything about it. With that year and a half, I saw a blind psychologist for the year and a half, someone who was totally blind. I talked through my visual impairment with him. He's totally blind, and I'm complaining about a central blur. That really put things into perspective for me.
But that helped me get through it and reach acceptance and realize, "Hey, this guy's totally blind. He's a psychologist, and he's doing well. He's totally blind. Okay. I'm visually impaired. I can get through this. I can make a good living out of this." A lot of things were putting things in perspective for me. Pun intended. That really helped normalize this for me. I really had to go through that growing-up process, and I did. That got it to acceptance. There wasn't a light bulb moment, but it was just a gradual process of time and space and reaching normalcy.
Josh King:
You've shared this on a couple of other interviews that we saw you do. But were you ever able to meet the man who saw you on TV that had unfortunately gone through a tragedy of his own?
Jeremy Poincenot:
No. Yeah. The tragedy is there was an F-18 plane that crash-landed in San Diego. Pilot: the only one in the plane ejected safely. He survived. But from the wreckage, four people died from the accident.
Josh King:
On the ground.
Jeremy Poincenot:
On the ground. Yeah. From the plane hitting and destroying houses. Four people died. It was a man's wife, his mother-in-law, and his only two children. It was a big news story in San Diego. I had recently lost sight. Everybody was talking about this story. One day, when I was on my parents' couch in their living room, I had the news on TV. They held a press conference for this man. He came up to the podium, bawling his eyes out, crying. He said, "If anyone knows how to deal with this type of tragedy, please help me." I thought, "Whoa. Here I am complaining about having a central blur and being legally blind." I thought if I called this guy to say, "Hey, I'm dealing with challenges," I imagine him hanging up on me and being like, 'Talk to me when you're dealing with some real stuff,' because he just lost four family members and I'm complaining about a central blur.
Again, that's one of those things that put things into perspective for me. I haven't met him personally. No. I know that word has gotten to him. He moved back to Korea not too long after that incident. I think he wanted time and space. He wanted to leave. I get that. I know that word has gotten to him that his story inspired me. That's good. That was one of the instances that has provided perspective to me to make me realize that I'm legally blind, but it's not the end of the world. I can still live a really good life.
Josh King:
One of the reasons you're here in New York today is this interesting milestone and passage at Intercontinental Exchange in which our mutual friend, Chris Edmonds, is taking over the Fixed Income and Data Services business. He's convening all the top salespeople of ICE Fixed Income and Data Services here at the NYSC for the first time just a couple of days after he takes over. To allow our listeners inside the walls at 11 Wall Street a little bit, he begins this morning at about 8:30 and gives a keynote of his own focused on the important aspects of where he sees his tenure leading this, the largest part of ICE's business moving forward. One of the key elements of it is team. It's not a place where people go about things alone. Certainly, your situation as you found yourself dealing with LHON... You realized that you couldn't do things alone. You needed help. You needed advice. How did you go about building the team and building the mentors that you needed to move forward?
Jeremy Poincenot:
Yeah. It took me losing my sight to see this. I ended up coming back to school. I only took two classes. I finished those other ones I took incompletes in. One of my best friends, Josh, helped me get back into school. He took those same two classes with me in his five-class schedule. I remember telling him, "Josh, I appreciate your help. This means a lot. But I know I'm a burden." I'll never forget his response. He said, "Jeremy, you're not a burden. You're a blessing."
At that time, I was taken aback and thought, "What is he talking about? What could he be getting from this?" I thought I was the only one benefiting from our relationship at that time. But he opened my eyes to realizing that, you know what? He's benefiting from this as well. I'm giving him, my 19-year-old buddy, more purpose and meaning in his life by him helping his legally blind friend. Not too many people have that. That's when I first started to realize there's something far beyond independence. That's seeing the power of interdependence. That makes me more comfortable in asking others for help.
I realized that asking for help is not a weakness. It's something that I think we all need to embrace more. We need to embrace interdependence in our lives more personally and professionally. I think we're too gung-ho-independent. We think that independence is the key to success when, in reality, if you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together. That is interdependence.
Josh King:
If you want to go far, go together. Good way to pause a little bit for a mid-show break. After the break, Jeremy Poincenot and I are going to continue to discuss how his life has evolved since his LHON diagnosis. Dive into his career as a championship-playing golfer. That's all coming up right after this.
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Josh King:
Welcome back. If you're enjoying our conversation and want to hear more from our guests like Jeremy Poincenot, remember to subscribe to Inside the ICE House podcast wherever you listen to your podcast. Give us a five-star rating and review us on Apple Podcasts.
As I mentioned that, Jeremy, I wonder... I spend so much time listening to podcasts. I now listen to a lot of audiobooks. I listen to various places that read professionally magazine articles because I think that's some of the best journalism and best writing around. I appreciate how sentences are formed as a writer but how they are performed as a speaker and how they settle on the ears. Do you appreciate where technology is right now to assist people who are visually impaired?
Jeremy Poincenot:
Big time. Big time. I listened to more books in the first five years post-sight loss than I read the first 19 years of my life with my eyes. I love audiobooks. I'm traveling a lot for speaking. When I'm on planes, I'm listening to podcasts and audiobooks all the time. I didn't know that magazine articles can be read. I'll need to find that because I enjoy that, too.
Josh King:
At the beginning of our conversation, we talked about your early years golfing. After getting diagnosed with LHON and losing your sight, did you think maybe that your time on the course playing 18 with the family and friends had come to an end and you're going to have to do other things to pass the time?
Jeremy Poincenot:
For sure. Yeah. Golf is such a visual sport. When I lost my sight, I was like, "That's done. Trash the clubs. I'm not doing this anymore." I thought I was done with golf and really didn't know what athletic endeavors I could partake in. But golf was definitely not one of them.
Josh King:
There's a thing called the United States Blind Golf Association. What first brought the USBGA to your attention? What are your feelings about playing blind golf?
Jeremy Poincenot:
My omnipresent mom found the USBGA. Told me that there's blind golf tournaments around the world. I thought she was kidding. I said, "Mom, how do blind people play golf?" I thought she was joking. There is such a thing as blind golf. There are tournaments all over the world. I was not really interested at first to do it because I knew how good I was when I was sighted. I was a three-handicap. I would shoot in the 70s and low 80s.
When I lost my sight, I didn't want to do it because... a couple of things. One, I knew how good I was before. I knew I wouldn't do that when I started. Then, one of my least favorite things in golf is slow play. I thought blind golf was the epitome of slow play. I just didn't want to do it. I wasn't interested. My mom had these ideas. "Oh, Jeremy could one day become a champion," and all these things. She didn't voice them to me. But I just wasn't interested.
But maybe a month or so later, I said to my dad, "Let's go to the driving range. We can hit some balls." I said, "If I swing and miss/if I miss one, I'm done." We have a term for that in blind golf. It's FISH. It's an acronym. It stands for F, it's still here. That's if you FISH it. You swing and miss. But I said, if I do that, I'm done. I didn't miss any. Some of them felt good. I couldn't see any of the ball flight, of course, but I could feel the impact. I think it's in Tin Cup. The main character says, "We all have a tuning fork inside of us. We feel that feeling of a good shot." Pros feel it almost every shot. Good golfers feel it more often than not. Even novices who just pick up the game might feel it once in a round. That tuning fork went off for me on a couple of shots. I went, "Whoa. I don't need to see to feel that. That felt good. We can take this to the course sometimes."
I expressed interest to my dad to... "Hey, I'm willing to try this. Let's start with executive courses. Let's make it where I don't feel like I'm slowing people down too much. Maybe we can give this a shot."
Josh King:
Tiger Woods had LASIK surgery in 1999 and also in 2002. Rory McIlroy, four-time major winner, had the surgery in 2015. Woods: arguably, the greatest golfer of all time. McIlroy: not far behind him. Both had procedures during their careers to enhance their eyesight. For you, having played your whole life with sight, how difficult was it to relearn golf without the ability to read those greens and directionally point your body in the right way? You showed us some video of how it actually works. But for our viewers, how does it actually work?
Jeremy Poincenot:
Man. Yeah. It was very difficult. A lot of the difficulty is relying on somebody else because golf is such an independent sport. You're doing it all yourself. In blind golf, I have a teammate. I have a guide, someone who helps me on every single shot. For me, that was an easy choice: my dad.
My dad is my guide in every competitive round of blind golf we play in. What we do is when we get to a tee box, he'll tell me, "Hey, this is a par four, 400 yards." If there's no trouble that he knows I can reach or the driver will be a problem, then we pull a driver. He'll let me know, "Driver's good here." Then, he'll line me up. I'll do a practice swing. He'll point in the direction we want to hit the shot. I try to envision where he is pointing. I have no idea where he is pointing. I step over the shot.
From behind, he looks at how my feet are lined up. He says, go more left. More right. Okay, you're good. I hit the shot. We do that the whole way around the course. For chip shots, I'll have him stand in front of me. I'll line up to him. People who don't know much about blind golf or me... They think I'm about to hit a trick shot and flop it over his head. I'm not. I line up to him. Then, I tell him he's good. He moves out of the way. I can see well enough to know when he is out of the way. I then hit the shot. But it gives me a point of reference for those closer shots to know the exact line target we're trying to go for.
Then, putting, I'll pace it. I'll walk it off with my feet. I think that's something that, as amateurs, they don't do enough. They'll have a 50-foot putt. They'll just look at it from where the ball is and hit it, leave it five feet short, and go, "Oh, I didn't realize there was a hill at the end. It was going up."
Josh King:
Totally my problem.
Jeremy Poincenot:
You got to pace it off. I think that's a benefit, as a blind golfer. I'll pace all my putts off. I'll do it when other people are putting, or I'll do it quickly if it's my turn. But I'll pace it off and go, "Okay, 10 paces, 30 feet." I'll come back to my dad and say, "Hey, 10 paces. Feels like it's uphill. What do you think we play at 11?" This, like I said earlier, is this confirmation with him and his eyes. "You think we play at 11 paces. I feel it breaking left. What do you see?" He says, "Yeah. I see it breaking left. I like 11 paces. Let's aim at a foot outside right of the hole." Okay. Then, I do my practice strokes. I put my Callaway Odyssey putter behind the ball. Then, my dad tells me to go a little more right. Try to get to that one foot right at the hole target. Then, I stroke it with what feels like is an 11-paced putt. If we make it, I'm the man. If we miss it, my dad misread it.
Josh King:
In your type of golf play, how do you manage gimmes? Do you take a gimme, or is it actually okay to hit within three foot in? Can you do that pretty well?
Jeremy Poincenot:
I mean, in tournaments, there's no gimmies. In all blind golf tournaments, you put everything out. When I'm playing with my dad, I'll take every gimme you give me. Sometimes, a three-footer with me and my dad or a two-footer, I'll step up and putt it on my own. I'd say I make it a majority of the time, partially because you just step up with confidence and don't overthink it. But in all tournaments, I'm having him line me up for everything. If it's right on the edge of the cup, I'll tap it in myself. But three-footers and stuff... That's where it's the nitty-gritty. It's like, "Hey, are we putting it left edge with dying pace, or are we going middle of the cup with firm pace?" That's the thing we need to dial in together as a team so we're on the same page. When I stroke it, we know what is coming. It's not like left side of the cup. I hit it firm, and he goes, "Well, I was expecting you to die it." No, we have that confirmation beforehand.
Josh King:
Listening to your 2012 Ted Talk that we referenced earlier, you mentioned your first round of the 2009 National Championships in San Antonio, where you shot a 97. I think it was 25 over par. It wasn't the score that you wanted. But it really did have a big influence on your playing moving forward. Describe to us the impact that those 18 holes had.
Jeremy Poincenot:
Yeah. It had nothing to do with me. I was paired with a totally blind golfer, someone who's a B1. In the blind golf world, there's three side categories. B3 see better than I do but are still legally blind. I'm a B2. Then, there's B1s who are totally blind. In the first round of that national championship, my dad and I paired with a B1, totally blind, can't see a thing. His name's John Casolo. He's 80. He's a really cool individual. My dad and I paired with him. Like you said, I shot a 97. I'm mad at the world. I'm telling my dad he messed up as my guide. I was going to boot him for somebody else. John Casolo shot a 324.
He shot a 324, which is astronomically horrible. I mean, if you're listening and you've never played golf, trust me, you could go out tomorrow and beat a 324. That's how bad that is. I shook his hand after the round. I'm still ticked off that I shot a 97. I said, "John, thanks for playing with me. It was fun," in this nonchalant attitude. He said, "Jeremy, I had a great day today. Thank you." He said, "It's just a game. Enjoy yourself. I'm like, "What? You shot a 324. I shot a 97. Who's a real winner here?" He inspired me.
We went out the next day. I said to my dad, "Let's play more like John Casolo. Let's not argue. Let's enjoy ourselves. Let's not argue as much." We shot an 88. We shot nine shots better. Tied for a second. Lost in a playoff and finished third. John Casolo, the second day, I think, shot a 150-something.
Josh King:
Half his score.
Jeremy Poincenot:
Half his score. Probably because he wasn't playing with me. I was probably his bad luck. But I see John at every national championship. He's the most inspirational person I know. He's incredible.
Josh King:
John was probably not in the field in 2010 at the Blind World Golf Championships in the UK tournament. Went into a playoff, as you were head-to-head with England's Simon Cookson. On the first playoff hole, you were right off the green. I want to listen to the crowd's reaction during that chip shot.
Crowd:
Aah!
Josh King:
We've heard that reaction to a crowd every hole when we're watching at Augusta or Oak Hill. But how did it sound to your ears when you were holding one out at the World Blind Golf Championship?
Jeremy Poincenot:
One of the coolest experiences of my entire life. Top three coolest experiences of my... Getting married, having children, and that are the top experiences of my life. It was a surreal experience. I was in this playoff, like you said, against a guy from England. We both ended up having short chip shots to the hole. There's an audience behind the green watching. We do what I told you. My dad stood in between me and the hole. I lined up to his backside. I said he was good. I hit it. I was chipping well all day and felt really confident over that chip shot. I chipped it. Came off the club perfect. I was like, "Okay, we're going to be within five feet, I can tell." Then, I heard a noise. I'm like, "Well, what was that?" I turned to my dad, and he screams, "It went in."
Everything after that was a blur. Pun intended. I threw my hat up in the air, caught it, and was on cloud nine. Up until that moment, a lot of days were a nightmare, like I said. That moment was living a dream. I was living a dream. It was a pinch-me moment. It didn't feel real. Whereas everything before didn't feel real in a negative way, that was a... I can't believe that chip shot went in the hole to win the world championship.
The gentleman had a chance to chip and make it on top of me to tie, but he missed. I am luckier than other golfers because we won that world championship, and I get to share that experience with my dad. Ever since then, we talk about that all the time. We'll have chip shots and tournaments. He'll say, "Hey, think about Whittlebury Country Club. Think about 2010 world championship." That's a really good positive image and experience to remember before a chip shot. I get to share these experiences and bond with my dad. How lucky am I? Had I not lost my sight, I wouldn't be able to do that. Again, a perk to losing my sight is getting to share all these experiences with my dad.
Josh King:
With your dad. I mean, I think about my experiences with my dad, now passed last year, with the things that I do with my son. So important. That 2010 championship, the first of three that you won with your dad alongside, you were a champion in 2016 in Japan. 2018 in Rome. To you, does the 2010 title have the most significance because of that chip and because it was the first, or do the other two eclipse that one that you've had in the UK and maybe even the 13 years of golf since?
Jeremy Poincenot:
Yeah. 2010 is the best because how it happened. Chipping in a playoff was surreal. We were newcomers. I was 20. People there... There were 60 competitors, 14 different countries. They didn't know who me and my dad were. After we chipped in, we were on the map. Everybody in the blind golfing world, around the world, knew who we were, which was really cool. Then, winning the world in 2016 and '18, like you referenced, validated that 2010 win. Then, we've won multiple national championships. That validates it as well. But it's just super, super cool to share the experience with my dad. Now, I'm a father of two boys. It makes me cherish the bond and relationship I have with my dad more now that I have children of my own and makes me realize how lucky I am to share these experiences that I do with my dad. It's really cool.
Josh King:
As we begin to wrap up, Jeremy, for over a decade, you and your college roommate have run CURE, which stands for Cycling under Reduced Eyesight, which has raised hundreds of thousands of dollars for LHON research. You're involved with the CAF, the Challenged Athletes Foundation. While you've talked about your time as a USBGA player, you also strive to help blind people with a passion for golf get on the course. Having been on the bottom in that moment of depression that you talked about right after your diagnosis to being on top as a three-time world champion blind golfer, what's the feeling like when you hear your story gets someone back on the golf course or back into a way of life that they once knew and helped inspire a challenged athlete pursue their passion?
Jeremy Poincenot:
It's phenomenal. It's surreal. Something I wouldn't have believed when I first lost my sight would be reality. If I can get people out there who are blind or visually impaired, if you know someone who's blind or visually impaired and they're somewhat interested in golf, get them to try it. Reach out to the USBGA. Check out our next tournament. We're very friendly/very accommodating, and would love to have them be a part of it. It really just takes someone to tell you, like my mom, that there is such a thing as blind golf. That gave me something to look forward to during a time I didn't have anything to look forward to at all.
Pursue your passions. Do things that make you happy. For me, that's golf. Now, it's blind golf. I'm obsessed with the game like any psycho golfer would be. I'm always tinkering, always trying to get better. It's benefited my life in so many ways that I can't count. But pursue your passions. Do the things you love.
Josh King:
How do people follow your story more closely? Get in touch with you.
Jeremy Poincenot:
I'm on Instagram. My name: Jeremy Poincenot. Instagram, LinkedIn. My website's my name jeremypoincenot.com. Then, I have a newsletter that I send out bi-weekly, every other week. People can get that through my website. Or they can just text the word "see," S-E-E, to the number 55444. Sounds like an infomercial. But you text that, and you can subscribe to my newsletter. It's called Poince, P-O-I-N-C-E, first six letters of my last name, of Perspective. It's just short 500-word thoughts/things that I've noticed to hopefully provide the reader perspective to be grateful for the things they have to enjoy life more, be more present, things that I've noticed in my time, and things that I hope are inspirational and beneficial to others.
Josh King:
As we bid adieu to you and to our listeners, I want to go back to that 2012 TED Talk one more time. Toward the end, you talked about what you'd do if you were given the opportunity to get your vision back. I just want to hear what you said back at that time.
Jeremy Poincenot:
If you were to come to me today right after my speech and say, "Jeremy, I have something that will give you a vision back. Do you want it?" I would say, "Absolutely not. No, I don't." I'm happier without my sight. More so than I was four years ago when I had my sight. That's because I don't take many things for granted anymore. I appreciate the things I do have because I've discovered that in life there are obstacles. We all face them every day. It's inevitable. Some are minute, some are so daunting we don't think we can overcome them. But it's how we approach these obstacles in life that determines who we are, determines our character, and determines our happiness.
Josh King:
You said... I'm going to quote you again, "I'm happier without my sight more so than I was four years ago when I had my sight." Said that now 12 years ago. As we sit here in the library of the New York Stock Exchange with 2024 just beginning, is that same sentiment over a decade ago still ring True?
Jeremy Poincenot:
Yeah, it does ring true. I wouldn't take my sight back if you offered it to me because I think it's a continuous reminder to be grateful for the things I have. I always have this central blur. That only reminds me to be grateful for what I have rather than dwell on this blur. If you were to say to me, "Would you go back to pre-sight loss and go through the experience again?" No, absolutely not. I don't want to. I feel like I've run this marathon across the finish line, got the T-shirt and the medal. I'm doing okay. But I wouldn't change it.
Now, as a father, the only things I wish I had my sight for is the ability to get around a little quicker and easier. Driving would be nice and to be able to see my children do things like when they want to get into sports, to be able to see them from afar. But I think there's ways to do that still visually impaired. But those are the only things that I say, "Oh, I'd love to have my sight for that." Other than that, I'm good. I'm very content.
Josh King:
Well, you're good. You're content. It was great to have you at the New York Stock Exchange today. Jeremy Poincenot, thanks so much for joining us Inside the ICE House.
Jeremy Poincenot:
Thanks so much for having me. This was a lot of fun. Thanks.
Josh King:
That's our conversation for this week. Our guest was Jeremy Poincenot, inspirational speaker, coach, three-time World Blind Golf champion. If you like what you heard, please rate us on Apple Podcasts so other folks know where to find us. If you've got a comment or a question you'd like one of our experts to tackle on a future show, be sure to leave a review. Email us at [email protected] or X us @IceHousePodcast.
Our show is produced by Lance Glenn with production assistance, engineering, and editing from Ken Abel. Pete Ash is the Director of Programming and Production at ICE. I'm Josh King, your host, signing off from the library of the New York Stock Exchange. Thanks for listening. We'll talk to you next week.
Speaker 1:
Information contained in this podcast was obtained in part from publicly available sources and not independently verified. Neither ICE nor its affiliates make any representations or warranties, express or implied, as to the accuracy or completeness of the information and do not sponsor, approve, or endorse any of the content herein, all of which is presented solely for informational and educational purposes. Nothing herein constitutes an offer to sell, a solicitation of an offer to buy any security, or a recommendation of any security or trading practice. Some portions of the preceding conversation may have been edited for the purpose of length or clarity.
