Speaker 1:
From the library of the New York Stock Exchange at the corner of Wall and Broad Streets in New York City, you're Inside the ICE House, our podcast from Intercontinental Exchange on markets, leadership and vision and global business. The dream drivers that have made the NYSE an indispensable institution of global growth for over 225 years.
Speaker 1:
Each week, we feature stories of those who hatch plans, create jobs, and harness the engine of capitalism right here, right now at the NYSE and at ICE's exchanges and clearinghouses around the world. And now welcome Inside the ICE House. Here's your host, Josh King of Intercontinental Exchange.
Josh King:
A year ago, almost to the exact date of today's recording, we spoke with Joe Tyrrell, president of ICE Mortgage Technology, on how he and his team are on a mission to digitize the mortgage experience. That cumbersome process when you think you're going to buy the home of your dreams. Before you get the keys to the new place in the palm of your hand, that hand gets worn to the bone by signing an eight-inch high pile of paper documents, that's then FedEx to all the parties and stored in a warehouse or a basement somewhere.
Josh King:
The process can go just about completely digital saving so much time and money for participants, as you electronify the workflow from end-to-end. Now, since that conversation that we had with Joe, we've continued to work closely with the entire team at ICE Mortgage Technology. I don't want to step on some of the coming announcements from our colleagues over there, but 2022 is shaping up to be a watershed year to bringing even more automation to the home buying process. In a recent ICE Mortgage Technology news release, the focus was on a tipping point that saw purchases make up 51% of closed mortgage loans.
Josh King:
The first time since 2019 that purchases have outpaced refinancings. To quote Joe in that announcement, "These numbers are a testament to the strong and resilient demand for homeownership and the demand for ICE Mortgage Technology's digital solutions." So our guests today, Guild Mortgage Company's CEO, Mary Ann McGarry, and its president, Terry Schmidt are not just veteran leaders of the industry, who are clients of ICE Mortgage Technology, but they've recently completed an IPO on one of ICE's exchanges.
Josh King:
They both join us Inside the ICE House for a conversation on Guild mortgage's success, the current state of the housing and mortgage markets, and leading a company through a technological revolution. Our conversation with Mary Ann McGarry and Terry Schmidt is coming up right after this.
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Josh King:
Our guests today, Guild Mortgage Company's CEO, Mary Ann McGarry and its president, Terry Schmidt, are veterans of the real estate business and led Guild through its October 2020 IPO right here on the New York Stock Exchange under the ticker symbol GHLD. Mary Ann has served as Guild's CEO since December 2007 and has held numerous, leadership roles over her 37-year tenure with the firm.
Josh King:
Previously, she was with Peat Marwick, Mitchell and Company, and Terry Schmidt was named president of Guild in 2020. Prior to her current position with the company, she served in a number of leadership positions with Guild, including as its controller from 1991 to 1997, and as its CFO from 1997 to 2020. Welcome, Mary Ann and Terry, Inside the ICE House.
Mary Ann McGarry:
Thank you.
Terry Schmidt:
Good to be here.
Josh King:
I'm curious, Mary Ann and Terry, what are the main economic indicators that you both look at to assess the state of the housing market and the short-term outlook for Guild Mortgage's core business?
Mary Ann McGarry:
We look at the Mortgage Bankers Association, their forecast all the time, as well as Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. And that gives you an indication of the strength of the housing market and what to expect going forward. But this industry is so volatile and changes all the time, that it's really just an indication. Right now, the housing market continues to be strong with interest rates remaining low.
Mary Ann McGarry:
The MBA, Mortgage Bankers Association, is forecasting interest rates to rise in 2022 and to be more of a purchase market. Refinances should drop significantly, as rates rise and then the purchase business will become the bulk of the market. And this bodes well for Guild because that's our expertise and where we shine.
Josh King:
Mary Ann, you first joined Guild in 1984, which was a year of economic growth, really comparable to the end of 2020 and the start of 2021. What was the mortgage industry like back at that time and what brought you into Guild?
Mary Ann McGarry:
Well, what brought me into Guild was I was recruited by a former manager at Peat Marwick to come over into the business. He brought me into lead the internal audit division. It was an introduction into a very, volatile market and it was exciting because this business just changes all the time.
Mary Ann McGarry:
That's been consistent for 37 years. So if you want to do the same work day in and day out, mortgage banking's not for you. It constantly changes. It's challenging and it's exciting. So it gets in your blood and you think you might not be in it for long and you just stay forever.
Josh King:
Talking about staying forever, Terry, amazingly, you joined the same department, internal audit, a year after Mary Ann. And both of you began in an ascent that have taken you to your current positions. When did you first realize that you made such a strong team, the two of you, and how did your own career develop from there?
Terry Schmidt:
I started actually three months after Mary Ann. We've been together working as partners for 37 years. And nobody picks the mortgage business, it picks you. It was just a cold interview and right away from the first time we met, we had such similar backgrounds. We both had accounting backgrounds. We went to the same college. We had the same professors. We worked our way through college waitressing and whatnot. We just hit it off right away.
Josh King:
What was the gender makeup in the accounting class at USD back then? And what about both of your upbringings and what your parents did steered these two women toward both majoring in accounting at USD in the early '80s?
Mary Ann McGarry:
Well, my mother was my mentor and she gave me strength, confidence, and determination. And it was not common that someone born in 1923, received their college degree from a large university. And then she went on to get her masters and she was a teacher. And had a thirst for knowledge and felt it was critical for women, especially to get a degree and create some security for the future. Knowledge was king and she knew that would be a great path. And she believed I could do anything I wanted, as long as you tried.
Mary Ann McGarry:
That is the direction I went. I selected accounting. I love math, but I chose accounting because it's very black and white. There's no subjectivity. You're either good or you're not and the numbers speak for themselves. So I figured I'd have a better chance as a woman in a male-dominated field, because everyone wants someone that does a good job. And if I made money for them, and I was effective, and productive and made it under budget, they'd want me on all the jobs.
Josh King:
Terry, did your mom play an equally large role in your career development?
Terry Schmidt:
Very different. I had a great middle-class family upbringing. I came from two older brothers and one younger sister. And unlike Mary Ann's background, I was probably one of the first females in my family that ended up with a college education. I learned young watching my brothers. They were so into baseball, football, basketball, my dad coached their little league teams and I was always on the sidelines watching, as a female.
Terry Schmidt:
I was like, "I like this competition. This looks like so much fun. This is what I want to do. I want to compete." So I ended up getting into sports in high school and played collegiate volleyball. And that's where I really became very, very driven, very team oriented, and learning how to lead a team as well.
Josh King:
Talking about leading teams, Mary Ann, you took over the team at Guild from the CEO role from its founder, Martin Glitch, in I think 2007. What was his initial business idea for what was then known as Guardian Mortgage? And how did he shape the company from way back in 1960 until passing the reigns onto you?
Mary Ann McGarry:
Well, he was an entrepreneur and he was the number one builder in San Diego. That's how he started his career. That was his love was building. Well, he opened a mortgage company to service his track homes and he was one of the first FHA/VA lenders back in 1960, as well as the GSEs, Fannie and Freddie. So we've been originating and servicing residential loans since 1960. He actually retired in his 30s. He made millions, but he kept Guild as a viable company.
Josh King:
Terry, you were the CFO when Mary Ann was named CEO. And most of our listeners would know that 2007 was the beginning of the financial crisis with its initial seeds coming really from the mortgage space. In fact, the canary in the coal mine probably was the failure of Countrywide Financial, which was based in Southern California, founded by Angelo Mozilo, and then sold to Bank of America for $4.1 billion in July of 2008. When did you first realize that the industry was facing this existential crisis and what are your memories of navigating through it?
Terry Schmidt:
Yeah, that was really interesting times. It started back in the 2005 timeframe. And towards the end of 2005, our secondary marketing group could really see that things were starting to change. The investor appetite for certain types of products was changing. And we had that traditional mortgage banking background where we were very, very focused on full doc loans. We had a really strong balance sheet. Our liquidity position was really strong, so we were in a good position, but at the same time, we were trying to do a management buyout and sell the company for the owner.
Terry Schmidt:
So we were managing through this crisis on one hand, and trying to sell the company and find another partner on the other hand. It was really tricky times, but I think because we were pretty conservative in our nature, we got through it with flying colors. At the same time, when all those products came back, we were an expert. And so just everybody wanted to have a part of being in a company that had been around for many years and understood the traditional products. And so we took advantage of that and it was a very opportunistic time for us actually.
Josh King:
Yeah. So I want to drill into that opportunistic time a little bit because, Mary Ann, I'm curious how those first few years for you as CEO shaped the creation of Guild Mortgage that exists today. Not only how you led to the difficult period of the financial crisis, but how you came out the other side with a stronger company poised for the 2010s, leading to really your recent IPO and the company's continued success.
Mary Ann McGarry:
During that time, we had such confidence and knew that we had built something special. We had a strong foundation and platform of people, technology and process so I knew that we could grow. Our strategy was to pick up companies, production only companies that were having difficulty because of the financial crisis. Our plan was to take advantage of the dislocation in the market and grow. We knew we had the foundation, we knew we had the scale, and we knew we had the relationships to make us successful. We're good operators. We can support growth. We're creative, we're collaborative.
Mary Ann McGarry:
And together with the right partners, we were able to take advantage of the market and grow. Our business model was the key though. The fact that we had both origination and servicing, helped us grow because we were a direct lender. So we had relationships with Jenny Mae, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac. We securitized our own loans and we were able to just rapidly grow. The challenging part was getting enough warehousing lines, but we had such strong relationships with many, many banks over decades, that we were able to bring in enough banks to help support our growth.
Josh King:
Thinking about your partner on the other side of our conversation today, Mary Ann, how would you describe each other's leadership style? I'll let Terry answer after you do. And are there areas where your strengths compliment one another?
Mary Ann McGarry:
We've always complimented each other, but I would say Terry is driven like no one I've ever seen. And if you wanted something done, all you had to do is tell her she couldn't do it and she would make sure it got done. And she's creative and solution oriented. Together we made a really good team. Together we just made great decisions and it wasn't just Terry and I, it was our whole team.
Mary Ann McGarry:
What's special and good about Guild is that we have a great path for success for our people. I have passion for teaching, and learning, and bringing in new ideas. So if you come to Guild and you want to succeed, you have the opportunity. We always create a path for talent.
Terry Schmidt:
I think the biggest difference is Mary Ann's more of an extrovert naturally, and I'm more of an in introvert. So I'm more of a behind the scenes trying to figure out what the solution looks like and what it should be. And the other journey that we were on together, we always had each other bouncing ideas and whatnot amongst the two of us.
Terry Schmidt:
If I had a difficult time in a certain situation, she was always there to bring me up and vice versa. And so we just complimented each other over the years, just so well.
Josh King:
I'll tell you both that over the course of my own adult life, I think I've owned probably six, separate properties. Mary Ann, in your CEO letter, you wrote that your goal is to have clients for life. How does Guild accomplish this? And why is this an important focus when the vast majority of mortgages are 30 years, which is a long time to be locked into a customer-provider relationship already?
Mary Ann McGarry:
Well, this is a high trust relationship business. And our mission is in neighborhoods and communities everywhere, we deliver the promise of home. And so everybody wants homeownership. It's an emotional transaction more than a financial one. We find that trust is the key component in getting a mortgage. You may want a digital process. That's table stakes. You expect technology to be the best, that's just given in today's world, but you may not want to go through everything and there're hundreds of programs.
Mary Ann McGarry:
So sifting through everything, it's nice to have someone you trust and that you can build a relationship with. Guild fits you into the best product for your particular needs. See, our system is unique in that we have one integrated platform from the time you take a loan until it pays off. So normally they don't last 30 years. They might refi if rates get better, or they may move up and get a bigger home, depending on their family size or move down, whatever this case may be. So what we mean by customers for life is that we want to be there.
Mary Ann McGarry:
We want to put you in homes, but we want to keep you in homes. And we want to be your partners through the life cycle of the loan. We have taken great steps and strides in creating a memorable and personal experience through the life of the loan. That means the trusted loan officer that you started Guild with will always be contacting you just to see how you're doing. That's what they do over the life of the loan. But if you have a hardship or during COVID, when you were scared about your house and what was going to happen, they reached out to their loan officer if they didn't get through to servicing.
Mary Ann McGarry:
So we had very, different ways of communicating and made sure we touched all bases to help our customers through that difficult time. We were ranked this year number one in overall customer satisfaction by J.D. Powers. That just validated that our strategy is working and that customers are happy with us.
Josh King:
Staying on this theme of partnership, Terry, buying a how it's really one of the core ways to increase a family's assets. It's usually, for me anyway, the largest purchase a person's going to make in their lifetime. And according to what I've read, the average mortgage in 2021 has now surpassed $400,000.
Josh King:
And being the partner for those types of transactions has to be both exhilarating but also challenging. How does Guild help these clients, people younger than me, but just starting out, prepare for the responsibilities that are going to come with such a large, financial transaction?
Terry Schmidt:
We've really specialized in multiple products, but specifically, the first-time homebuyer that needs more handholding, may need some training and development, as far as financial success. We specialize in the FHA programs, the VA programs, rural housing. We're number one in state housing programs.
Terry Schmidt:
There's a lot of local down payment assistance programs that are available for the first-time homebuyer. And because we've got boots on the ground and we've got 250, 300 branches all over the country, they specialize in these types of programs. That first-time homebuyer that's out looking, that needs additional handholding and education, we're there to provide that for them.
Josh King:
Mary Ann, as the leader of a leading, independent mortgage lender. What do you think is Guild's responsibility to make sure that these underrepresented borrowers, the support that they need to find this path to homeownership?
Mary Ann McGarry:
We're heavily involved with Mortgage Bankers Association, investors and the administration. So the good news is that this current administration is committed to finding and developing pilot programs to help the underserved markets. It's a void right now, because values have increased, as you stated, and it's harder to get in those homes.
Mary Ann McGarry:
Even if you don't have a lot of money to put down and we take care of that piece, the monthly payment's high. What do we do as stewards of the mortgage industry to create homeownership for the underserved and help them create wealth, strengthen the communities they live in?
Josh King:
We will provide some opportunity for our listeners to learn more about Guild Mortgage after the break. Guild Mortgage Company's CEO, Mary Ann McGarry, and Guild's president, Terry Schmidt, and I are going to discuss the current state of the mortgage business. The rising role of technology and cultivating an inclusive and diverse workplace. That's all coming up right after this.
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Josh King:
Welcome back. Before the break, Guild Mortgage Company's CEO, Mary Ann McGarry, and its president, Terry Schmidt, and I were discussing their backgrounds in some of the recent history over the last dozen years or so of the mortgage industry. Terry, before the break, we were discussing some of the barriers to entry that homebuyers face, but a more time sensitive issue is the current low inventory of homes coming to market. Are you worried about a slowing of construction or other factors that are affecting inventory in the housing market?
Terry Schmidt:
The inventory issue has been problematic for the last two years. And last year, 2020, the lack of inventory in the turn times of those properties being sold was under 15 days on the market, which is unheard of. It's getting a little bit better. That's changing somewhat, but it's really, really slow and there isn't enough supply out there. There isn't enough building. It's not happening fast enough.
Terry Schmidt:
Those barriers to entry, they're still out there. Those that need financing, they're up against cash buyers. And so that's making it even more problematic. And so having a lender that really can fulfill that transaction very, very quickly, can get them a credit approval very, very fast, is real critical in the world we're living in today.
Josh King:
Your careers span from the days where the only way that you could really see a place was an open house on a Sunday, or those photographs that were plastered on a realtor's storefront window. Now, we have reality shows and apps like Picasso. How has technology changed the industry and where do you think it's headed?
Mary Ann McGarry:
Technology changed the industry by increasing the productivity per loan officer. But like you said earlier, it's still an emotional experience. It's the largest transaction you'll probably ever have in your life, and especially for a first-time homebuyer. So there's still an emotional component when it's a purchase. And purchase transactions or purchase business, unlike refinance business, creates more durable and consistent returns so they're different. A refinance and a purchase are definitely different.
Mary Ann McGarry:
During the pandemic, technology was so helpful. It helped us, it was our best year ever. And it really eased the process for our customers. So technology is a great tool. It augments the process and there's those that never want to talk to anyone, and they just want to get on the computer, and do the entire transaction. And there're others that really need you every step of the way. That's why we have the platform we do, is so that we can serve all types of people and all backgrounds, but technology absolutely supports that initiative.
Josh King:
Now, I scrolled through the management page on Guild's website. In addition to you and Terry, the team includes two other women, two men. Public companies, C-suites are beginning to reflect the diversity of their employee base, but progress has certainly been slow. How has Guild been successful at promoting gender equality? And how do you ensure that a commitment to diversity and inclusion is embraced really across the company?
Mary Ann McGarry:
I think it feeds off of what you start to build. So more than half of Guild leaders are women and we've created a culture of inclusion and empowerment. That's attractive to women and to men because of the focus on fairness. We recognize performance and results. We work to create a development path for everyone. We're committed to coaching, development, continuing education and training.
Josh King:
Speaking of growth of the business, Terry, we were looking over the transcript of Guild's last earnings call. You spoke about Guild's growth strategy. How has the company grown since your start in internal audit 36 years ago? Where are you best positioned to expand operations, as you look forward to that fourth-quarter call or the first-quarter call of 2022?
Terry Schmidt:
Well, honestly, the company for probably the first 20 years that we were at Guild really stayed pretty steady. It was a pretty, steady course because the owner had retired and was really not willing to add additional capital to the business to support growth. But when we did our management buyout back at the end of '07, we knew at that point, that we needed to start growing the business and growing it exponentially. At that time, when we had our new, private equity partner, McCarthy Capital, they were very supportive in growing the business.
Terry Schmidt:
So right away, we started looking at organic growth where we would add branch offices across the country. And at the same time, looking at M&A, mergers and acquisitions. We did our first merger back in 2008. We've done seven since then, so we've done a total of eight acquisitions. And we look at it as on the M&A side, we want to get a good partner, a good leader, somebody that has a good presence in their marketplace and that one plus one's going to equal three. It has to be good for both parties. Both parties have to be successful.
Terry Schmidt:
Our M&A transactions by year three, they usually increase their business about 30% on our platform. It's been extremely successful. We really have kept everybody here at Guild and so we're real proud of that. And at the same time we're looking at how do we increase the efficiency of every loan officer within our platform? How can we get them from doing five loans a month to six loans a month? What type of technology do we need and background to help them become more successful? We started that back in '07 and we haven't stopped and we're going to continue there.
Josh King:
You say you're going to continue. I wonder where you think the opportunities are to find continued targets, given how many that you've already done and the way the industry has consolidated so far? Curious if you think consolidation continues and do you stay geographically connected, or do you branch out into other areas of the country?
Mary Ann McGarry:
We're always looking for opportunity. This is a large market, so a three, four trillion market. It's going to go down when refi's drop, but it's over two trillion every year. We're just a small piece. There's tremendous amount of opportunity to grow. And so we just look for opportunity and make sure that the culture aligns with ours and core values, and then it works. And so there's tremendous opportunity all across the nation. And I do think there's going to be more consolidation and we're counting on it.
Josh King:
Terry, modernization, in addition to consolidation of systems, training employee bases with the skillsets that they need, it's all really a costly endeavor. Does being a public company, give Guild an advantage accessing the capital needed to continuously evolve? You talked about your private equity partners, but now you're listed on the exchange.
Terry Schmidt:
Oh, we definitely think so. On the exchange and having access to capital from that direction, as well as the bond markets are very, very strong and have a good appetite. So either way we've got additional access to capital, without a doubt.
Josh King:
As we wrap up then, let's turn our attention from technology and capital to the people that are part of it and operating the business. What impact will the past 22 months of the pandemic have on your workforce, how it's deployed? And are you predicting that an increased, hybrid working conditions are going to become the norm for Guild?
Terry Schmidt:
When the COVID hit, we've had a diverse workforce because we've got 250, 300 branches out there, but we had to go 100% remote immediately. And we were successful in doing that with Microsoft Office and Teams, using that technology was amazing. We didn't miss a beat. And our business doubled in a 60 to 90 day period.
Terry Schmidt:
We see going forward that our workforce, they really have been successful and continue to be very efficient in working from home so we're going to keep that optionality out there. And it allows us to actually expand our reach nationally, to get better talent, even though they're working remotely. The biggest challenge there is just making sure that we continue to engage our employees.
Josh King:
Now that everyone's remote, or has a hybrid opportunity, or is in the office less, it's going to require a ton of communication efforts. How do you keep yourself tethered to all the folks, who work under the Guild banner and how do you ensure that Guild culture is going to be consistent across the company, given these changing conditions?
Mary Ann McGarry:
It's a work in process right now because we are a people business and have always had sales rallies, and president trips, and all sorts of things to bring our company together. But we've always had remote branches as well so we're very good at communicating. We have newsletters, videos, but we always talk to everyone, touching them in one way or another, and communicating effectively. As we grow, my challenge as CEO is to make sure we keep our culture intact. We don't lose what's special about Guild. We don't get too bureaucratic, too structured.
Mary Ann McGarry:
We want to enjoy the resources of a large organization, but keep the soul of a small company. And somehow we have to figure out the hybrid solution where people don't feel isolated. They still feel like they're part of something. We're trying different ways of saying couple days a week, you come in, we have department meetings. We make sure that we have regional rallies. So we're going to go around the country next year and just touch base with everyone now that it's less restrictive. And make sure that we keep that relationship intact because our loan officers need it. And frankly, I need it. I get energy from people.
Mary Ann McGarry:
So I like being in the office and seeing people. I think it just depends on the type of work you do in the company, whether or not you want to come in. No doubt everyone's productive. That's not my concern. They're all productive and accountable. I want to make sure we don't lose what's special about Guild.
Josh King:
Terry, as Mary Ann is making her way around the country next year to reconnect with everyone at Guild Mortgage in the offices that you operate really across the nation. From those offices, your loan officers are touching thousands of communities, really at the grassroots level. What is Guild Giving and how does it support your employees, as they support their own locales?
Terry Schmidt:
Well, we created Guild Giving a foundation about five years ago. And what we do is we provide a funding, as well as paid time off to the branch offices and their employees. It gives them some autonomy where they can really look at where in their local community do they really want to donate either dollars or time. And so they work together and choose a charity that they really want to work with.
Terry Schmidt:
We're also trying to create with this some additional down payment type assistance programs through Guild Giving that could help the underserved and that next generation homebuyer, because we all know that the Hispanic, African American families, they really need more help. And so we're working through Guild Giving to also support that initiative.
Josh King:
So Mary Ann, as we wrap up, as you get ready to hit the road next month, what do you think is next for Guild Mortgage, as you continue to grow as a public company?
Mary Ann McGarry:
Well, I think we're just going to continue to improve our process, our systems, provide support to our branches, and just keep growing, Taking what's special about Guild and spreading it throughout the entire nation, and serving communities and neighborhoods everywhere.
Mary Ann McGarry:
To me, it's important to not just put people in homes, it's the American dream, but to do everything we can to keep them in homes. And for me, that resonates because when I was a small child, my dad became ill and we lost our home to foreclosure. So I'm proud of the fact that we do so much to keep people in their homes, and we make a difference in people's lives.
Josh King:
Serving our communities and neighborhoods everywhere, and making a difference in people's lives. Not a bad corporate mission to have, if you are running a company like that. Thanks so much, Mary Ann and Terry, for joining us Inside the ICE House.
Mary Ann McGarry:
Thank you.
Terry Schmidt:
Thank you.
Josh King:
And that's our conversation for this week. Our guest was Guild Mortgage Company's CEO, Mary Ann McGarry, and its president, Terry Schmidt. That's NYSE ticker symbol GHLD. If you like what you heard, please rate us on iTunes so other folks know where to find us. If you've got a comment or question you'd like one of our experts to tackle on a future show, email us at [email protected] or tweet at us at ICE, House Podcast.
Josh King:
Our show is produced by Pete Ash with production assistance from Ken Abel. I'm Josh King, your host, signing off from the library of the New York Stock Exchange. Thanks for listening. We'll talk to you next week.
Speaker 1:
Information contained in this podcast was obtained in part from publicly available sources and not independently verified. Neither ICE nor its affiliates make any representations or warranties, expressed or implied, as to the accuracy or completeness of the information and do not sponsor, approve or endorse any of the content herein, all of which is presented solely for informational and educational purposes.
Speaker 1:
Nothing herein constitutes an offer to sell or a solicitation of an offer to buy any security, or a recommendation of any security or trading practices. Some portions of the preceding conversation may have been edited for the purpose of length or clarity.
