Speaker 1:
From the library of the New York Stock Exchange at the corner of Wall and Broad Streets in New York City, you're Inside the ICE House, our podcast from Intercontinental Exchange on markets, leadership and vision and global business, the dream drivers that have made the NYSE and indispensable institution of global growth for over 225 years. Each week, we feature stories of those who hatch plans, create jobs and harness the engine of capitalism. Right here, right now at the NYSE and at ICE's exchanges and clearing houses around the world. And now welcome Inside the ICE House. Here's your host, Josh King of Intercontinental Exchange.
Josh King:
Some of my fondest memories as a child, I'm in the backseat of my parents' Chevrolet Caprice Classic, covering the highways in byways of rural Vermont en route to Sugarbush Valley in Warren. As Interstate 89 gives way to Vermont Route 100, a little south of Burlington, history would begin to unfold for me silently outside the rear view mirror as mom and dad chatted away in the front seat. Vermont, the 14th state admitted to the Union March 4th, 1791, counts as its hometown hero one Ethan Allen, farmer, businessman and patriot whose Green Mountain boys captured Fort Ticonderoga on May 10th, 1775, one month after the action at Lexington in Concord. Cannons from the fort sitting at the mouth of the La Chute River between Lake Champlain and Lake George, a gateway to the Hudson River would be hauled to Boston by Henry Knox, fortifying Dorchester Heights and helping to break the British siege, leading to the evacuation of the red coats.
It's that kind of lore that created much of the revolutionary mystique around early New England. So much so that two 20th century salesman, Nate Ancell and Ted Baumritter, bought a bankrupt sawmill in their beloved Vermont for $25,000 in 1935. And four years later, named a 28 piece line of colonial furniture in honor of Ethan Allen that they unveiled at the 1939 Chicago Housewares Show. Their millionth piece of furniture was presented to none other than President Dwight Eisenhower. And in 1969, the company's formal name was changed to that of their Vermont hero, just seven years shy of America's bicentennial in 1976. Before long, that boy who watched the Vermont countryside roll by also started seeing Ethan Allen showcase galleries pop up along the suburban landscapes where I grew up, their columned facades much like the New York Stock Exchange itself, standing for American solidity in values, a brand which allowed independent furniture dealers to have a recognizable storefront from which to sell their wares.
I bought it at Ethan Allen became a sort of status symbol that mom and dad, guardians of the family unit, had finally arrived at their desired station in life with beds, dressers and tables made for their colonial homes. Alas, nothing lasts forever, of course, except maybe an Ethan Allen dining room set. What happened in the ensuing decades is the stuff of another kind of American dream that starts in the mountains of Kashmir well before it gets to the Green Mountains of Vermont. In a minute, we'll welcome Inside the ICE House Farooq Kathwari, the Chairman, President and CEO of Ethan Allen, who led a management buyout of the company in 1989 and in 1993 took the company public right here at the New York Stock Exchange. Now trading under the ticker symbol ETD. Our conversation with Farooq Kathwari on entrepreneurism, marketing, manufacturing and global affairs and the journey from another side of the world to where we sit today on Wall Street, it's coming up right after this.
Speaker 3:
Connecting the opportunity is just part of the hustle.
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Opportunity is using data to create a competitive advantage.
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It is raising capital to help companies change the world.
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It's making complicated financial concepts seem simple.
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Opportunity is making the dream of homeownership a reality.
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Writing new rules and redefining the game.
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And driving the world forward to a greener energy future.
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Opportunity is setting a goal.
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And starting a course to get there.
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Sometimes the only thing standing between you and opportunity is someone who can make the connection.
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At ICE, we connect people to opportunity.
Josh King:
Our guest today, Farooq Kathwari, is the Chairman, President and CEO of Ethan Allen Interiors, that's NYSE ticker symbol ETD. He's been president of the company since 1985, a journey that started with his education in English literature and political science at Kashmir University and his MBA at NYU. With a roster of accolades and awards too numerous to a site here, I'll only add before we get into our conversation about all things commerce, that Farooq is the dean of our New York Stock Exchange Listed Company Advisory Board and a beloved fixture here at the historic corner of Wall and Broad Streets. Happy New Year and welcome, sir, Inside the ICE House.
Farooq Kathwari:
It's always great to be here and to be part of this great, great exchange. I started my career right next door, One Wall Street, and it's [inaudible 00:05:51] 50 years later, I continue to come here.
Josh King:
Amazing what has happened in that 50 years to One Wall Street just opened up now rehabbed as condominiums. Farooq, it's great to have you here. Wall and Broad is about 70 miles from Danbury, Connecticut, the longtime home of Ethan Allen. But given the bit of history that I just relayed, what kinds of emotions are spurred when you walk through these doors just across the harbor from Ellis Island where you were the 2018 recipient of the Ellis Island Medal of Honor?
Farooq Kathwari:
Well, when I reflect on my journey, this is a story about America. I was just 20 years old when I left those beautiful mountains of Kashmir and ended up in beautiful Brooklyn. And I needed a job and I saw an ad, it said bookkeeper. I had never seen any books or even a calculator in my life, but anyway, I convinced the small owners of a printing company right on Canal Street to give me a job and my career started as a bookkeeper and I had never seen a calculator before. That is a story of America.
Josh King:
We're going to find that moment a little later in our conversation, but I want to go well before you're 20 years old and a bookkeeper here on Wall Street. You were a bulwark, as I mentioned, of our Listed Company Advisory Board. It's fair to say that Wall Street didn't mint a lot of new listed companies in 2023, when I last saw you for an LKAB dinner, Farooq. What market conditions did you see in 1993 as you were going public? And what will it take for private companies to take the plunge that you took way back then as we enter this new year in 2024? You see new Ethan Allen's ready to come on the scene?
Farooq Kathwari:
I think so. I had taken the company private in a management buyout about three years back and we needed to go to the next stage. We needed to make sure that we have the right kind of financing. I had taken 90% debt to take this company private with interest rates up to 18%. And I must also give a lot of credit to the New York Stock Exchange. To welcome us, to take a company at that time, there was a concern whether we were even a going concern, but we were able to convince. And I think that started our journey and I think that's a tremendously important journey for a lot of entrepreneurs and companies.
Josh King:
What do you get out of the Listed Company Advisory Board? It's fair to say that generally the relationships you make with CEOs of other industries dealing with a variety of management, leadership and regulatory challenges, you are in some ways the elder statesman of that group, but there's a lot of people to learn from when you get together here.
Farooq Kathwari:
No, absolutely. Learning is always a process. Every day you learn. I take a walk in the morning every morning and you learn because you're thinking. Similarly, when I'm here, I'm listening to lots of entrepreneurs. And it is tremendously important for leaders to listen to others because you can get caught into your own environment and don't think. So you always, when I'm here, I'm listening to various people, it is an education.
Josh King:
Before we get into your journey and where the world sits in 2023, let's reflect on some recent developments including the grand reopening celebrations of your design centers, especially reinventing Ethan Allen as the interior design destination. Now in its 91st year, you personally cut the ribbon on your flagship locations in New York City and Marlton, New Jersey. I see on your website a showcase of your grand reopening events all over the country, Farooq. What's behind what you call this constant reinvention?
Farooq Kathwari:
Yes, it is. It's a very important part of this constant reinvention. Now, we started as a company, as a manufacturer of products, then we started selling those products in stores through our own independent dealers. We also introduced the concept of interior design. But it took us about 50 years to come to a position where you can rarely say that we are an interior design destination. And that was tremendously important. About a year back or so, I thought about it. I said, "We talk of interior design, but we are going to make it as a part of our enterprise at a part of our culture." And to do this, we had to rethink even the size of our stores, we call them interior design centers. And interestingly, that the size of our interior designers centers today is about 50% less than it was 10 years back. We can talk about it later. But the combination of technology and personal service has made it possible.
Then we had to take a look at how do we best project our designs. Only 10 years back, folks in New Jersey thought what people wanted there was very different than in Connecticut and California, Florida, all a different market. We said no. But we came to the conclusion, but also it's not just us. The design and consumer's interest in the home has come to a degree that they all now can think about good design anywhere. So we said we will develop an interior design destination that is going to be uniformly all across the country. As I said, 10 years back, our interior designers, we are an interior design company, we have the largest interior design network, they would've said it's not possible. But then we brought in about, I think seven or eight months back, we did our corporate headquarters design center in Danbury, and we brought in about, I think, 400 or 500 of our interior designers and managers to look at it. They all said, "Great, fantastic. We like it." Because they have to buy it in. We just can't tell them do it. They bought it in.
Then when I saw that they all had bought, we said, "We are now going to do this right across the country. And every week, we are having interior design destination ribbon cuttings." In fact, this evening, I was supposed to be in Whippany, New Jersey having a ribbon cutting. It is actually one of the design centers still operated by a family that started with us 50 years back, the Esposito family, they delayed it to tomorrow because they were just worried about the weather. This is an amazing focus. And also, it happened at a time when the economy is sort of weakening. This gives an opportunity to differentiate. Otherwise, all we could be saying is come in and get it, a sale and all that kind of stuff. We are now getting a message across. It has also created a tremendous amount of pride among our team, our interior designers love it. They are interior designers, and so from a perspective of our interior designers, our customers, it took us 90 years to come to this destination.
Josh King:
And across those 90 years, if you look at the most recent results that you shared, fiscal 2024, first quarter results back in October 25th of last year, you announced consolidated net sales of 164 million, gross margin of 61%. What's the state of the American consumer and their furniture buying habits today, Farooq, with interest rates still high? In the real estate market where ICE is making this bold move into the mortgage industry, sort of in this state of flux about whether we've topped out on mortgage rates and inventory is so low.
Farooq Kathwari:
Yeah. This is an important discussion because when we compare the last four years to let us say the great recession that took place about 10 years back, it is entirely different experience. At the Great Recession, 10 years back or so, people stopped buying, they were not paying attention to their home. With this focus on the home, with COVID, people staying home, there was a tremendous interest in home. So we had lots of interest, very major increases in sales. But then, now we're coming to the next stage, and the next stage is people are now traveling, people are now spending time in other areas. They have already spent a great deal on home. And we saw in our industry, a number of companies continue to think that somehow this is going to keep on going. And they are out of business. Many have declared bankruptcies. We said no.
I said about a year back, this thing is going to slow down, so we better prepare ourselves for a slowdown. So today, even though our sales are good and we have prepared ourselves in making sure that we don't do anything crazy stuff, we have controlled our expenses, we have less people today than we had even five years back or even three years back, but more qualified people. So I'm looking at, as we have said publicly, that obviously times are tougher, but the good news is that we continue to be profitable, generate good cash, and I believe that that's how we are going to continue to operate.
Josh King:
You mentioned the weather delaying your grand reopening in New Jersey by a day, talking about the weather, one of the notes in that earnings release back in October was lowered shipments of approximately 15 million due to the ravaging effects of flooding in Orleans, Vermont that took a big toll on one of your manufacturing facilities. I want to just hear a little bit of a local news report from Vermont after the storm.
Speaker 14:
The video you see here is from Ethan Allen's VP of Domestic Manufacturing, Mike Worth, when the water was at the furniture plants highest last Tuesday.
Mike Worth:
We approximately had between 500 and 600 skids here with parts and panels on. And as you can see, they're all being thrown out right now.
Speaker 14:
He says they tried to prepare better than they did for Irene, but it wasn't enough.
Mike Worth:
We built berms around the boiler in case water comes up, as well as with our product on the floor, we raised it before the storm came, expecting maybe 10 inches to a foot, but not four feet.
Josh King:
I watched the machines work in your plant to remove all that debris, Farooq. That was your colleague, Mike Worth. The reporter mentions Tropical Storm Irene, which deluged my upstate village of Wyndham back in 2011, and also laid waste to a lot of Vermont. How did you recover from an event like that and how can you guard against the effects of climate change at your facilities?
Farooq Kathwari:
Yeah, that's a very important issue. And we do know this, that climate is changing and we got to think about it. Now, our plants in Vermont were built, we have two major operations, one in a place called Beecher Falls and the second one in Orleans, they were built right next to rivers because the rivers were the mode of transportation.
Josh King:
Right.
Farooq Kathwari:
And with this storm that came in, it had a devastating effect because they were thinking that it might probably be a foot of water, it came four feet. And today, our plants are full of technology. Technology is what makes it possible for us to continue to manufacture in North America. And so many of this high-tech equipment was under floods and we are still recovering. Some of them, we have been able to fix. And some, we had to buy new ones. Today, the plant is operating at about 75%, 80%, and because we had to buy new equipment, we had to bring in people to repair. And it had an impact. It still has an impact, but it looks like that under the month or two months, we'll come back to the normal levels.
In terms of preparing, we are looking at to see, for instance, Orleans plant is a multi-story plant, 10 years back, it was not an issue. Put all the equipment on the first floor. We are now moving it to the second floor. So we are doing those kind of common sense kind of things that you have to do today.
Josh King:
When you got the word that the four feet had come up, did you put on the storm boots and go survey the damage and help in the rebuild?
Farooq Kathwari:
Well, no, one of the first things I did was that the news that you just referred to, I told them, "I'm going to talk to you," to them also because there was a rumor that we might close the plant. So I went on the television. I said, "No, we have a long history here." And the next day, the Governor Scott of Vermont said, "I'd like to talk to you," and he had a fairly long conversation with me. In fact, he visited the plant the next day, the governor did.
Josh King:
Yeah.
Farooq Kathwari:
So I think that I do continue to go there. I like hiking too, I like those mountains. And we are making progress. It takes a long-term commitment to stay in North America, state of Vermont.
Josh King:
Sure.
Farooq Kathwari:
We do have challenges. There are labor issues, there are issues of transportation, but we have a tremendous amount of history. And if we had not invested in the technology that we have, it would be very hard to keep it going.
Josh King:
In 2019, you wrote a memoir, Trailblazer: From the Mountains of Kashmir to the Summit of Global Business and Beyond. It begins in 1949, when you were four years old and growing up in Kashmir, your father heads off to Pakistan on what everyone thought was going to be a brief business trip. It kept him away from home for 17 years. Let's hear a little bit of a Pathe news reel from before that time.
Speaker 16:
More news from Kashmir. A once peaceful mountain state, now a battleground of Muslim and Hindu. Since the creation of the two dominions, the leaders of Kashmir's largely Muslim population, have revolted against their Hindu ruler. Lines of communications were cut and the fighting men of Free Kashmir prepare to defend their land. As Pandit Nehru poured in troops by air to aid the Hindu minority.
Josh King:
What happened to your dad and your family as a whole as a result?
Farooq Kathwari:
Our family, it was quite well known, my great-grandfather started a business of arts and crafts, and in fact, also one of his major business was getting sapphires from a mountain area called Kathua. Our family name is Matu, but we were also called Kathwari, so I decided to change it. So they were in the business of arts and crafts. My grandfather also was very much involved with arts and crafts of Kashmir and also getting arts and crafts connected to the Silk Route, which is part of that region. My father, on the other hand, had studied law. And when the petition of India and Pakistan took place, Kashmir, of course, they fought over Kashmir. He decided to take, he had to go to the Pakistan side because our family were in the side that was controlled by India. He had gone there for a month, but then his permit to come back was canceled.
So he decided to stay there. And not only stay there, but they asked him to be one of the heads of the government. And this was called Azad Kashmir, or Free Kashmir, that's what they called it. Well, after about two years or so, or a year or so, with the involvement of Madeleine Albright's father.
Josh King:
Korbel?
Farooq Kathwari:
Korbel and Admiral Nimitz, who were given the responsibility of conducting a plebiscite in Kashmir by the United Nations. He met them because he was a minister of law and all of that. So he somehow arranged through them to have my mother and us come back. But I had an older brother and sister, they were in school and we weren't. So our grandfather said, "This whole thing is going to be for a few months, you go over across," and we did. So we went, but then instead of four or five months, it ended up 10 years and we ended up staying at about 8,000 feet. That's where we grew up. And we saw conflict. We saw a problem. But after 10 years, we were allowed to come back, but not our father.
Josh King:
You were a strong cricketer as you write, but not such a great student at SP College. What made you live in a cow shed for a couple of years? And how did it all end up for you, as you said on the cricket pitch, if you're not playing, your practicing?
Farooq Kathwari:
Yes. I grew up in the mountains, my father was very deeply involved with politics, so I was sort of more or less on my own, so I was pretty independent. But when I came back to Kashmir, to our main house, my grandfather was very, very well known. He had all kinds of properties, everything else, but I was pretty independent. And I had some arguments with him, and one of the arguments was a silly thing like cricket boots. I needed to get new shoes, he said, "Write an application." I said, "Application?" I said, "As of now, I'm not going to get anything from you, have to do anything with you. I'm not even going to live in your house." Then the question was, I was about, I think 16, 17 or so, so where do I go? And in the back of his property was a small mud hut cow shed. The cow was in the bottom, two little rooms at the top with no glass, no windows, no electricity and all that stuff. I said, "I'm going to live there."
That became my first construction project. I fixed the windows, I plastered the walls and did something extremely dangerous. Right across the wall, outside wall, was an electric pole. I climbed the pole and connected electricity, which was not, of course, legal also, right to my cottage. I could not be here. It was so stupid. But anyway, I lived there for three years, was pretty independent. And I, of course, spent a lot of my time playing cricket. Now, my grandfather and others, at that time, most families wanted you to either study medicine or engineering, but I was in sports. So I didn't tell them. That was one of my other arguments with him. I ended up, but I became quite good at sports. And in fact, the college where I went to, the head of the college gave me an office, which is in my book, at a fairly young age.
I spent all my time studying. I was playing cricket, but I also had interest. And in fact, some of those professors would come into my office to teach me, English literature and political science. And then my father, who was still on the Pakistan side, after he had gone from politics, the New York World's Fair took place. So he got an opportunity, said he got a job at the New York's World's Fair. So he thought by coming to America, maybe he will have an opportunity to go back home. So when he was here and I was in my final year of college in Kashmir, he said, "Why don't you apply for colleges?" Of course, I had no idea, so he did. He applied to New York University, to Columbia, to other places, but then said, "You've got to go to school where you can go at night because you'll have to work during the day," and NYU had that opportunity. So I ended up applying and coming to America.
Josh King:
So that year that you talk about, maybe a year before I'm born, when you visit Flushing Meadows in Queens today, you might watch a Mets game or a few matches at the US Open at the Billie Jean King National Tennis Center. But in 1964, the scene was totally different. I want to hear just a little bit from another one of those Pathe news reels.
Speaker 17:
The Mormon church lifted straight from Salt Lake City and one of the Chrysler creations. 8,000 workmen bulldozed a million cubic yards of Earth to bring four years of planning to an extravagant two-year life. Now, get a glimpse of London without ever leaving this square mile of super showmanship where the theme is man's breathtaking achievement in an expanding universe. And you don't need to go to Hollywood to see Grauman's Chinese Theatre and its famous film star hand prints.
Josh King:
Now, Farooq, World's Fairs, kids today can't imagine what they were intended to do in 1964, what your dad was hired to do with the pavilion that he was working on or what it might mean for a young man like you to be out and Flushing working these grounds and then going to NYU at night. But paint a picture for a listener of what a young man from Kashmir, how they get indoctrinated and transformed and almost transported to all these different parts of the world in Queens for a couple of years.
Farooq Kathwari:
No, it was really an amazing, it was amazing. The first years, when I came from Kashmir to New York, Kashmir was, India and Pakistan were fighting over it, there was war going on. So we were not allowed to put any lights unless you got very sick or something. So when I was landing, I saw lights all over. The only time you were allowed to have lights was if a marriage. I said, "People must be getting married here all over the place." The first thing, of course, the next day I went to the fair, and just what an amazing experience. You had these pavilions, you had pavilions for like the General Motors had a pavilion, the Chrysler had a pavilion. You had technology companies. You had Disney. And all of them had pavilions that it was almost like going through the tour of major, major exhibitions of the world were all in the Flushing Meadows and in the World's Fair.
Josh King:
So my brother's name is Richard King, but it's not the same Richard King that gave you a job at Imperial Envelope for $1.75 an hour. As their bookkeeper, you mentioned that first job earlier, you learned that, I'm going to quote you, "If you have the intelligence and instincts to solve problems in one setting, you can probably solve them in another setting." Here at ICE, we are all about problem solving, what's your approach to problem solving?
Farooq Kathwari:
You see, for instance, there you mentioned about that first job. When I saw this ad, I did get admission at NYU British School, which was about a block from here, right on Church Street, and that too was by itself an amazing thing that they gave me, that I had appeared in a test. I had to go to Bombay in India to appear in a graduate admissions business, I must have done all right because I got admission. So I needed a job, so I saw this ad, it said bookkeeper needed. I asked my class fellows, "What's a bookkeeper?" They said, "Don't apply." As I had said earlier, I had never seen a calculator, but I said, "What's the worst they would do? They'll say no." So I went there. Fortunately, it was around lunchtime, that helped. So when I went there, there were these two partners, Richard King and Jesse Isaacson. Company was called Imperial Envelope Company, 446 Broadway. I've forgotten a million addresses.
Josh King:
But not 446 Broadway.
Farooq Kathwari:
Not 446 Broadway. So they had two rooms. One room is where Richard King, Jesse Isaacson and there was those days called a Gal Friday, her name was Sally. And Abe printed the envelopes in the other back room. So I went there. He said, "You are looking for a bookkeeper job?" I said, "Yes, sir, I am." So he said, "Okay, let me see what we can do." He took me a desk, he opened up a ledger and there was a calculator. I've never seen a calculator. He said, "Would you foot it?" Does he want me to kick it? So I said, "Well, what's it in English?" He said, "What do you mean in English? Where have you learned bookkeeping?" So I had to think fast. I said England. The only thing in England I had done was change a plane. So anyway, fortunately as I said, so I said, "Okay, let me look at it," that this Sally was looking at me, and fortunately it was lunchtime and they had to go somewhere.
And so they said, "Would you come back?" I said, "No, I'll wait." So this lady just came, said, "I've been looking at you, you anything about bookkeeping?" I said, "No, but tell me how does it work? What is this calculator? What is this book?" And in 45 minutes, she gave me a education about bookkeeping. So when these folks came in, she had done most of the work, and she had done all the ads and all of that. When they came, "That's pretty good." They said, "What do you think about our bookkeeping?" I said, "It needs a lot of work." Well, I got the job and the adventure started. It's amazing that that first job led me to Wall Street.
Josh King:
There aren't any Horn & Hardart automats left in New York City, but you still ride the subway when you spend time in New York City. It's always easy to say, "How are you and where are you from?" Which is your sort of stock-in-trade door opener. But how did that outgoing personality open doors for you in America and where did it lead?
Farooq Kathwari:
Well, think of it that here, first, when I was there at this Imperial Envelope company, my grandfather in Kashmir decided to help me. My father had asked him. So he said, "I'm sending you 12 wicker baskets of arts and crafts. Sell them, send us a cost and I'm going to start." My first thing was by this time I was living in Brooklyn, what would I do? Where would I keep? Anyway, I found the solution. But then, our class at NYU had received a lecture from the CEO of Bloomingdale's. His name was Marvin Traub, very well known. So I called his office. I said, "I have something very important to discuss, Mr. Traub." He said, "What is it?" I said, "No, I have to meet him personally." They're busy. I called 12, 13 days, every day. Finally, they said, "Okay, he's going to see you." So I went to Bloomingdale's on 59th Street with some of those products. He brought in a merchant and they liked it. So Bloomingdale's became my first customer. And that's how I started in my business environment.
Josh King:
How then did an oversized photo of the Grand Canyon ultimately lead you to net and sell in that conversation about Ethan Ethan?
Farooq Kathwari:
Yes. In fact, by then, I realized right next to Bloomingdale's was what is called the D&D Building, the design building, then was Lord & Taylor. So I went to all of these folks. I met designers. At that time in Kashmir, they made a lot of embroidery, but they made it in rugs. So I saw this Grand Canyon photograph, I sent it to Kashmir and said, "Why don't you embroider this?" They did. And all of a sudden, it's interesting, the folks in the D&D Building loved it and my business started in developing other products. But then about seven months later, or eight months later, when I was working with the Imperial Company, in bookkeeper, they said to me, they said, "Your school is near Wall Street, why don't you go get a job on Wall Street?" I said, "What does Wall Street do? What job should I ask for?" They said, "Go tell them you're a financial analyst."
And so I went to the first building on Wall Street, right close to here. It used to be called the Irving Trust Building. Walked up and the 16th floor was Bear Stearns. And I still remember that the director of personnel who talked to me, I had filled in an application, they said some extracurricular activities. I said mountain climbing. Well, I lived in the mountain. He said, "I love mountains. Tell me more about it." So he was more interested in mountains. Sometimes you connect. He said, "I've got to get your a job here." So I got a job as a junior financial analyst with Bear Stearns right next door. So it was then only about a year later, less than a year later, the Rothschilds of Europe had established a company here right on 70 Pine Street.
Josh King:
New Court Securities.
Farooq Kathwari:
New Court Securities. And they had established a fund called the Five Arrows Fund, which represented the five Rothschild families. And somehow they wanted somebody to help as a junior analyst to the portfolio manager. My name came up, so I went there. Long story, but again, the fellow who met me first, Larry Harris was his name, he helped me get the job and I ended up working for the Rothschilds. And it was there, one of my associates, name was Roger Whitman, he's in the book, he said, "You selling all these accessories and artifacts, I know the founder of Ethan Allen. Why don't you come and meet him?" I said yes.
Ethan Allen used to be, at that time, right on Lexington Avenue and 33rd Street. So I went to see Nate Ancell. The first time I met him, he brought in a merchant, they said, "This young man is from Kashmir. Do we get anything from there?" They said, "Yes, we get this fabric. Never comes on time, always a problem." He looks at me, he said, "You can help?" I said, "Absolutely," of course, I had no idea, but I got in the fabric business. That's how I started with Ethan Allen.
Josh King:
Before we get into the break and then get into building today's Ethan Allen interiors and the industry today, what was Nat and Ted's business at the time? 250 independent stores operating under the Ethan Allen Gallery umbrella, how did that work?
Farooq Kathwari:
Well, you see, when they started, they both, especially Nat Ancell was an entrepreneur. He was a visionary. At that time, most furniture was sold, I'm talking the 1930s, '40s, was sold like a commodity. And so he said, "No, people should at least see how does a bedroom look like, dining room look like." So he convinced stores like Macy's, Marshall Field's and others to establish what they call Ethan Allen Galleries. So the gallery program was very simple, very basic, but at least people could see a dining room.
Then the second stage was that they realized that the department stores are not going to be able to give a lot of service, that these stores, these Ethan Allen Galleries should be put into furniture stores operated by people who are focused on furniture. So they converted a lot of Ethan Allen, a lot of dealers who were selling furniture and they converted into an Ethan Allen Gallery. Their different names, their names were Georgetown Manor, Carriage House, Bob's Ethan Allen, Bob's Georgetown, but that's all right. So that's how this started, by converting. In the 1960s, 1970s, Ethan Ethan Allen Galleries were opening up, operated by independent families. Ethan Allen was not in the retail itself. It had 30 manufacturing plants. It started in Vermont, ended up manufacturing from Mid-Atlantic to the West Coast to the South, Carolinas, even Oklahoma. But these dealers operated Ethan Allen Galleries all around the country.
Josh King:
How did your business KEA fit into that model?
Farooq Kathwari:
When I first started, I called my business Kashmir Products Limited, PO Box Wall Street Station, because I had no address, and that was selling the fabrics. And then after a year or so, Nat Ancell calls me again, he says, "We are having trouble getting rugs from India and Romania. Can you help?" I said, "Absolutely." Of course, I had no idea where Romania was, I had no idea where rugs in India were made, but I went, I found the solution. Went to India and found the place and started the rug business with Ethan Allen. So he knew me.
He sort of saw me and came to, he said, "I really would like you to come to Ethan Allen to work." By this time, I had become the chief financial officer of the Rothschild Company from my bookkeeping experience. Crazy, three or four years later. I said to him, "I've got a pretty good job now." The chief financial officer and the Rothschild wanted me to stay. And John Berkland, he actually was also on the board of the New York Stock Exchange many, many years back, he was the CEO, but he wanted me to stay.
So finally, I went to Nat Ancell, said, "I'll consider doing it, but it's got to be a partnership." So we agreed to form a company called KEA, Kathwari Ethan Allen. I own 60%, Ethan Allen own 40%. I gave my job and started developing products for Ethan Allen. Those days, Italy was a main source of products. So I set up an office in Florence, in Italy. I had two very, very talented people and started developing a lot of products from Florence, from Italy, then into Spain, went to many, many. So the KEA, I was one of the first ones to go to China to develop products. This was the time when Mao Zedong and Chairman Li, they were all, it was a different China. But we developed all of those. And then in 1980, he really said, "You got to come here and work." So I said, "What would I do? Why would I come to," Ethan Allen had moved to Danbury, Connecticut. So he said, "Why? What would make you do?" I said, "The only reason is to come to take your job." You're shocked, surprised, but that's how I went to Ethan Allen.
Josh King:
And we will get into the rest of that story after the break, we're going to continue our journey with Farooq Kathwari. From Ethan Allen headquarters in Danbury to span the globe again and again as the company evolves to what it's become today under Farooq's leadership, that's all coming up right after this.
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Josh King:
Welcome back. Before the break, Farooq Kathwari, the Chairman, President and CEO of Ethan Allen, that's NYSE ticker symbol ETD, and I were discussing his journey from the mountains of Kashmir to the canyons of Wall Street, and ultimately to the rolling hills of Danbury, Connecticut during his formative years as an entrepreneur, a merchant and now a burgeoning leader of Ethan Allen. The company at this point had been sold to this St. Louis based conglomerate Interco, which owned the Florsheim, Converse, London Fog brands. Meanwhile, Nat is getting into furniture manufacturers and even hotels with a sort of Walt Disney like aspirations up in Danbury. And you, you're tooling around near Alana in upstate New York in a restored World War II Jeep. How did you and Nat arrive at an understanding of where the company would go from there? Before the break, you said basically the only opportunity would be to take your job.
Farooq Kathwari:
That's right. Yeah. So you see, a number of things happened when I joined the company. And he said, "I can't promise to you, but that's always an opportunity." I said, "But keep in mind, Nat, if I come here, that's what I'm going to do." He smiled and we went on. Then right after that, a number of factors happened, family things happened with Nat Ancell, Ted had retired. And they decided, the family, to sell the company. And at that time, this was the age of the conglomerates. This company Interco in St. Louis had decided, and other companies were thinking of it too, that the furniture industry should be consolidated, it's operating too many independent operators. So they then purchased Ethan Allen, they purchased Broyhill and they purchased Lane, and became the largest in the furniture business.
One other company called Masco. Masco also decided that, yes, they should be conglomerates, and they purchased companies like Thomasville, Henredon, Lane. So all of a sudden, these two companies purchased some of the leading furniture companies. Now, Interco, when they had purchased it, and by this time, I had gone, 1985 became president, so I was of course dealing with them. And they came under a hostile takeover bid by those folks who still exist, Apollo, operators are still here. And Interco then hired advisors who at that time, one of the ways they did was they advised that take a lot of debt and perhaps these folks will go away. So they took a tremendous amount of debt and really put the company into an issue.
So at this time, I thought about the fact that perhaps we have an opportunity to take the company private. Now, with my connections on Wall Street, that also helped. So I was able to work with John Berkland, who was my former CEO, former boss, was by this time running a company called Dylan Reed. Smith Barney, also I had known. Sandy Weill, then I also knew. I had called Jack Welch in Connecticut. And these are all very-
Josh King:
These are the great names of-
Farooq Kathwari:
The great names. So Gary Wendt-
Josh King:
Gary Wendt.
Farooq Kathwari:
... was running GE Capital. So Gary Wendt. So anyway, long story short, I convinced them to partner with me. So they all partnered and we established a Green Mountain holding corporation, based in my, I had also gone into real estate. I had purchased a bowling lanes, that was my first office for my joint venture, then I bought two other buildings. So a long story, it was not easy, but we were able to buy Ethan Allen in a leveraged buyout with interest rates that ultimately went up to 18%, which was crazy, with 90% debt. And then that's when we went public on the New York Stock Exchange. All these folks helped because my involvement with Sandy Weill, actually Jamie Diamond was a person assigned, he worked for Sandy Weill.
Josh King:
And Jimmy Lee plays a big part in your story as well.
Farooq Kathwari:
Jimmy Lee, yeah, he was at Chemical Bank. Yeah. So they all really, it's amazing how these connections and all of them helped. Walter Shipley was the head of Chemical Bank and Jimmy Lee worked for him, and we made the deal that they would finance me at some resort place in West Virginia where Walter Shipley took me in his plane.
Josh King:
Was that the Greenbrier?
Farooq Kathwari:
I think the Greenbrier, yes.
Josh King:
Yeah.
Farooq Kathwari:
In fact, Walter Shipley, again, these coincidences, when he was a student or when he was gone out of Columbia, he got to work at the United Nations, and his assignment was Kashmir. Sort of amazing coincidences. He came from the family of Brown Brother Harriman that brought Shipley.
Josh King:
Right.
Farooq Kathwari:
So he made the deal here. Connections because he was working on the Kashmir issue when he graduated from I think Columbia. So of course, I was still involved very much in the Kashmir issue. But he said, 'Okay, we'll make things happen." And we did. And so with GE, with Smith Barney, with Chemical Bank, Chemical Bank also, and at that time, they could also not only give you loans, they can also be a stockholder. I don't think they can do it now, but they all became stockholders and gave loans.
Josh King:
So you've got the banks and the financiers all lined up, but within the confines of Ethan Allen, you've got 250 independent stores, 30 manufacturing plants across the country. You are to quote yourself from your book, "A man with an unusual name from a far away part of the world." Obviously, you got the Wall Street patricians to come to your aid, but you're now leading an iconic American brand. How did you go about winning over all of your internal constituents? Part of the answer found, I think, at the Great American National Parks like Yellowstone and Pikes Big, huh?
Farooq Kathwari:
Well, there are a number of factors. First of all, of course, when I became president, we had major, major manufacturing. We were a manufacturing company. So I had of course visited there, but we had a president who came from the New England. So he said, "Let's go to Vermont and you should talk to our 2,000 employees." We had 2,000 people working there. So I went there. So they looked at me, this name, Farooq, they never heard of it. So I looked at him, I said, I've of course come to Vermont before, Vermont I like because it reminds me of Kashmir mountains. And we have something in common, which is what we say in Kashmir, says that most of the problems of the world have been created by flat-landers. Do you folks agree?" They say, "Yes." Then I had to go. Of course, I had previously, when I was selling my fabrics, I had gone to North Carolina. We had the upholstery fabrics, so those folks had come to know me.
Now, the Ethan Allen dealers were very important. They owned, they operated the retail. And they had associations, the West Coast Association, the Southwest, the Midwest and Mid-Atlantic. My first was in the West Coast, very strong dealers, every one of them. So they invited me. Nat Ancell used to go there, before that, Baumritter. So they looked at me, and so they said after, they said, "Tell us what you're going to do for us." So I told them what I thought should be done, but I said, "Now let me tell you what I want you to do for me. If not, you're going to hear from me."
Josh King:
Right.
Farooq Kathwari:
They laughed, but you had to. The other thing was this, which you had earlier mentioned, the meeting was being held in a hotel near a airport in San Francisco. They said, "We have these meetings. Why don't you come and join us?" "I have a condition." They said, "What?" I said, "West has such beautiful places. Why are we having a meeting at the airport? Let's go and meet at the Grand Canyon. Let's meet in Jackson Hole." First they laughed, then they agreed. So for the next 10, 12 years, we had meetings in one of the most beautiful places, not only in the west coast, but then I convinced our dealer associations in the southwest to have meetings, they used to have an airport hotel in Dallas. I said, "Let's meet in Santa Fe. Let's meet in everywhere else." We came to know each other. Similarly, Midwest, they were the most conservative. They used to always meet at Chicago Airport. I said, "You've got Great Lakes here." And then the Mid-Atlantic, we started meeting in Florida, in Carolinas and the Bahamas.
Well, what it did was this, it created a bond. It also was an education for me because these were very experienced retailers. In fact, we were few still around that have been with us for 80, 90 years. Even today, I'm meeting one tomorrow in Whippany, New Jersey is opening, doing the ribbon cutting. Phil Esposito, I think now his children are also running it, but he's still there. They are with us, I think, 50, 60 years. So these folks are tremendous. In any case, developed an association. It helped us, but then they started retiring. The question was, should we now sell our products outside? At Ethan Allen, we also own two or three other companies that sold products to others. I was always a captain of a cricket team. So I said, "Well, I want to have one team. How can I tell you folks to completely work with us if we are not?" So I sold all those companies. It was not an easy thing to do. Then I told the retailers, you're going to change your name. Every store had a different name.
Josh King:
No more Carriage House Ethan Allen.
Farooq Kathwari:
Exactly. Carriage House, Whippany Manor, Georgetown Manor, was not easy. I had a revolt, it's in my book, by a number of them that got together. But anyway, they convinced, they helped, and then they started retiring. As they retired, I created a formula. I said, "Don't get big huge financial advisors. This is what I'm going to do and I'll be fair. I'm not going to give one different than others." It took a little time, they all agreed. And then in the next, I think, five, 10 years, we purchased 80% of them, one at a time. But the other challenge was that most of these stores had been opened in the 1950s, 1960s, by now, they were not in the right locations. So our next was to relocate them. So we have now, in the last 15, 20 years, relocated 80% of them, and it still continues.
Josh King:
So you've relocated them, and at the same time that demographics are changing, geography is changing, America's tastes are beginning to evolve. It's not the old time colonial look anymore that I described in the intro. How did Ethan Allen change with the times from the furniture that you were making to the look and feel of your stores, even the logo? An Apple Store is always going to look like an Apple Store, Farooq, but an Ethan Allen store isn't always an Ethan Allen store. Eventually, you had to sort of think about the next chapter of the American consumer.
Farooq Kathwari:
Oh, absolutely. In fact, one of the major revolutions took place right here in Manhattan. We used to have an Ethan Allen in there, 32nd Street, and I decided that Manhattan was an important one. So we took a fairly large, right on 65th Street and Third Avenue, and we said, "This is going to be the model of Ethan Allen." So we then had our new logo, new name at that time and products had been developed. So we then invited all our dealers and their families and we had a big, huge event at the Waldorf. We even invited folks from the Broadway to show the new Ethan Allen. You had to make it into an event. Said this is the new Ethan Allen. We also changed in Danbury, Connecticut where our headquarters is. We had the same colonial look. It was a colonial look with the green and blue and all of that. So we changed that. I had hired an architect to change their looks.
And then now, we had to convince our dealers, because at that time, they were all dealers. So we convinced them. We had many meetings. We convinced the folk and we had a dealer in Chicago to convert. We had a dealer in San Diego to convert. In Florida. So the process started of converting Ethan Allen from the colonial to where we are today. We had to change. They were all different names, so we had to change the names. All Ethan Allen, we had to change the design, we had to change the color of our... So the process started and the process still continues. Because today, our focus is, I use the terminology, that we are classics with a modern perspective.
Josh King:
I should ask you about doing business in Connecticut. I worked for The Hartford for many years and the antiquated state political apparatus is very difficult to deal with. We also saw General Electric mention Jack Welch and his successors head to Boston, United Technologies get absorbed by Raytheon. We've had Governor Ned Lamont here on the show. How have you managed to stay happy in Danbury for so many years?
Farooq Kathwari:
There are a number of factors. First is that we have a lot of good people working for us and they come from that area. That's the most important one. If that was not the case, then perhaps we would've said, "Should we be here?" They're hardworking people, very dedicated. We have hardly any turnover at Ethan Allen, hardly any turnover. But we have less people today than obviously, 30 years back, we had 500 people working in our headquarters, today, there're 200. A lot of it due to technology. We have maintained very good relationships with the people in Danbury, in Hartford, of course, with the governor. But having said all of those things, we focus on what we can do and don't spend too much of time depending on them. We've been also very deeply involved with WestConn, which is Western Connecticut State University, which is right next to us.
In fact, one of the first things we did was when Ancell was retiring and they were putting up a complex next to us, we then invested, it's called Ancell School of Business. Then later on, our own family foundation established a Kathwari Honors Program. So you have to be part of the community. So we have 500 students now under the Kathwari Honors Program.
Josh King:
Wow.
Farooq Kathwari:
So we have not asked the state to do too much for us. We said we are going to run our business, we're going to do what's the right thing to do, with our people, with the community. And we would do that anyway, where we were.
Josh King:
What's the best place to manufacture furniture today? As we said earlier, you inherited 30 plants. Sometimes there's a flood, like the one in Orleans, Vermont, takes out one of them for a little while. We don't love seeing "Made in China" on our sofas and it's hard to get them through the Port of Los Angeles in a container. What's the best mix of domestic and international manufacturer today and what benefits does Mexico offer?
Farooq Kathwari:
Yes. It's a very important issue because, as I said, 30 years back, we had 30 manufacturing plants from New Hampshire, Vermont to California. 15, 20 years back, manufacturing was leaving the United States, was going to East Asia, in all areas, in our industry too. So we had to decide, should we follow? And it was the tough decision because those folks were doing a pretty good job. We said, "No, we want to control our own destiny." Then I looked around and I said, "Let's look south of the border." And the first place, must have been 15, 18 years back, went to southern Mexico in a state called Manawatu. And it was actually a small plant run by a former US colonel in the Air Force and his family. So I went there, I saw, I also make decisions, but at the end of the day, we decided to buy it. Because I said south of the border, we are all worried about only these folks coming across the border and all those problems, help those people, they're tremendous opportunity.
Most folks go to offshore because it's easy. They don't have to make an investment. Here, we had to make an investment. Then we said, "What do we have to do to grow?" Well, in the next few years, we took this 50,000 square foot plant to 600,000 square feet, from 150 people to 1,000 people, and invested a lot of lot in technology. Because I've traveled a lot to China, to Vietnam, those folks have a lot of technology. If we don't, America, invest in technology, we are not going to have any manufacturing. But those folks have low labor costs and high technology. I said, 'We are going to look at Mexico."
So we established an upholstery plant because one of the major challenges in North Carolina where we have upholstery is we can't find workers to cut and sew. Our medical costs in the United States is crazy. All those factors we have to keep in mind. But all the fabric that we have now is cut in Mexico and shipped every day to North Carolina, keeping them busy. But only 20 years back, all this fabric was cut by hand, by scissors. Today, it's all cut by high-tech, computer-operated technology. Similarly, I was looking at wood products. We were in Vermont and a lot of other places. I said, "Let's look at south of the border." It just so happened that one of the ambassadors, American Ambassador to Honduras was a good friend of mine. He said, "Come to Honduras." I said, "All we hear about Honduras is problems." He said, "No, come." So I went to Honduras.
He introduced me to all the heads of the government and others. And unfortunately, we think that there are problems that you have to look at the better side. So anyway, after two days, I found a place, I found a big plant that had been built as a furniture, but all manufacturing had gone to East Asia. So we bought that plant. And interestingly, you got to also make it. I was meeting the foreign minister, was a trade minister. Sitting at the table was this lady, very smart, Carolina is her name, Carolina Pasqua. So I said to him jokingly, I said, "If we come here, she has to work for us." Well, for the 12 years, Carolina is running our Honduras operation and we have about 800 people over there, invested. Great in technology. We had to invest in the high-tech, all safeguards for the people, from environmental.
So to answer your question, I think for us, the combination of in North America and across the border makes sense. Like for instance, our operations in Honduras, all the wood is supplied from a wood operations we have in North Carolina. We have kiln drying, we get all the lumber there. For instance, in Vermont, we have sawmills. We ship them all the lumber because we want the products to be the same as here. Today, from a consumer's point of view, you would not know the difference if the product is made in Vermont, North Carolina, Mexico or Honduras.
Josh King:
You smell inside that drawer, it still smells like that Carolina or Vermont pine, it just happened to have made a pit stop in Honduras on the way back.
Farooq Kathwari:
Yeah, because we send them the wood from here. That's what it is now. No, we also have a plant, we don't own it, in Indonesia for those kinds of products we cannot make in North America.
Josh King:
So I was in the process of ordering a couple new closets from California Closets a couple of weeks ago. The ability to meet with the designer over Zoom, have them take measurements remotely, show me design alternatives real time, it's all amazing, with all of their costs calculated right on the screen. You said in your last earnings call that, I'm going to quote you here, "Today, we have about 30% less interior design professionals who are doing about the same business. In fact, from 2019, our total headcount in the company is less by 21%." How is technology changing Ethan Allen's business?
Farooq Kathwari:
Technology is changing in all elements. We've spent a fair amount of time talking about our manufacturing. But on the retail side, today, technology is enabling our interior designers to work with clients. Actually, every weekend I get about 50 reports from our team. And they also send me what is called a wow event, they send me stories, then I write to every designer. So it's a busy weekend I have. But what you see in many of those stories is how our designer has worked with a client in the design center or from wherever they are with our technology and creating a virtual technology in having the customers take a look at their whole room, what it's going to look like, what products could be there, change them. If that was not the case, we would not be reducing our space. So combining very professional interior designers with technology is key, and that's what's made it happen to us.
Josh King:
The notion of the massive Arizona subdivision filled with McMansions was giving way perhaps for people wanting smaller living space in cities with denser populations, like where I live in the West Village. They also want maybe more sustainable materials used in the products that they buy. What's Ethan Allen's answer to those trends?
Farooq Kathwari:
No, absolutely. In fact, environmental focus has been always very important for us. We have received many, many awards. For instance, Mexico, we for the last few years have received an award from the government as the best place to work in Mexico. Environmental is tremendously important. Same thing in Honduras. Certainly, we have been doing it for a long time in the United States. But we went over there and they said to me, "It's not required." I said, "No, you're going to follow exactly, as far as I'm concerned, think you're in Vermont." So I think from that perspective, environmental, sustainability, once you make it a part of your culture. Now in our case, we are unique. It also limits us. Limits us in the sense that we don't sell our products to others. All our products are sold through other Ethan Allen design centers. Now we could grow our business if we were to sell to others, but then it will not be a cricket team. So that's another factor.
Josh King:
So when I talked to you a couple of weeks ago, talking about the cricket team, you noted that Ethan Allen is going to celebrate its 92nd anniversary in 2024. It's such a momentous year in so many ways, Farooq. A presidential election may spell the difference in trade and economic policies that could benefit or hurt Ethan Allen. What's at stake in November for the company, do you think?
Farooq Kathwari:
I think what's at stake is for the country, I think that's more important. I think we have to see how do we keep America vibrant? How do we keep America as a leader in all aspects? And we also want to have leadership that thinks somewhat long-term. Unfortunately, short-term is a disease. So I think that from the country's point of view, I wish that there would be more long-term thinking, there'll be more areas of taking care of people. For instance, one of the biggest challenges we have is medical costs in America. In fact, I was right, I think it was here, when the Secretary of Commerce was here, so I mentioned our medical costs are two or three times higher than Canada, 15 times higher than Mexico and 25 times higher than Honduras. That, to me, is one of the major factors that we have to take a look at because we are losing jobs. Why would people, if they can have manufacturing or service or technology in other countries, because the cost in the United States for medical is so high.
Josh King:
There's a lot at stake not only for the country but for the world as well. Farooq, you've known personal tragedy that's caused you to become much more involved politically, both here in the US and overseas where you grew up. As we look at Israel and Gaza, at Russia and Ukraine and the many trouble spots in between, do you enter this year with despair or a degree of hope?
Farooq Kathwari:
Well, of course the recent events in all those areas you have mentioned is despair, sadness, because you want people to live together to live well, and short-term thinking is not good. And so unfortunately, there is a despair, but sometimes tragedy helps you with an opportunity because we want peace and I think that that's what we are hoping for and praying for.
Josh King:
If you weren't running Ethan Allen, besides returning to the cricket pitch, how would Farooq Kathwari be spending most of his time?
Farooq Kathwari:
Well, whatever I do, I do it with passion. I spent actually last one week, I haven't spent a week at a farm in Hudson, New York, but I spent a week. But I always think of projects. And so this project is to take, we have two, a pond and a lake, of completely reinventing it. So I'm creating walkways. I'm already doing it. And next year we are going to have a major wild flowers put into the farm. I'm always thinking of things. It doesn't matter whether I am at Ethan Allen or at the farm. Always think of creative ways of moving forward.
Josh King:
A story of constant reinvention from Kashmir to commerce.
Farooq Kathwari:
That's right. Yes.
Josh King:
We appreciate so much your time coming to the New York Stock Exchange and joining us for a little while Inside the Ice House, Farooq.
Farooq Kathwari:
It's always a pleasure and I've got a great, great association. And really, I spent a fair amount of my time right here in this area.
Josh King:
And I hope you continue to do so. You're always welcome back, look forward to your next visit as well. That's our conversation for this week. Our guest was Farooq Kathwari, Chairman, President and CEO of Ethan Allen. That's NYSE ticker symbol ETD.
If you like what you heard, please rate us on Apple Podcasts so other folks know where to find us. If you've got a comment or a question you'd like one of our experts to tackle on a future show, make sure to leave a review, email us at [email protected] or tweet at us @ICEHousePodcast. Our show is produced by Lance Glinn with production assistance and engineering editing from Ken Abel. I'm Josh King, your host, signing off from the library of the New York Stock Exchange. Thanks for listening. We'll talk to you next week.
Speaker 1:
Information contained in this podcast was obtained in part from publicly available sources and not independently verified. Neither ICE nor its affiliates make any representations or warranties express or implied as to the accuracy or completeness of the information and do not sponsor, approve or endorse any of the content herein, all of which is presented solely for informational and educational purposes. Nothing herein constitutes an offer to sell, a solicitation of an offer to buy any security or a recommendation of any security or trading practice. Some portions of the proceeding conversation may have been edited for the purpose of length or clarity.
