Speaker 1:
From the Library of the New York Stock Exchange at the corner of Wall and Broad Streets in New York City, you're Inside the ICE House, our podcast from Intercontinental Exchange on Markets leadership and vision and global business. The dream drivers that have made the NYSE and indispensable institution of global growth for over 225 years. Each week we feature stories of those who hatch plans, create jobs, and harness the engine of capitalism, right here, right now at the NYSE and at ICEs Exchanges and clearing houses around the world. And now welcome inside the ICE House, here's your host, Josh King of Intercontinental Exchange.
Josh King:
What comes to mind when you hear the term, 'like a girl'? Do you think of something fast, tough, and brave? Or are you drawn to the stereotypes that folks of a certain age, and I'll include myself in this cohort, might've found fitting on a schoolyard decades ago, maybe a little tentative, maybe lacking a little power? Any way you sliced it could have been construed as an insult. Over the years, we've welcomed in the Library here many guests that fight every day to end the stigma surrounding the term, 'like a girl'. We start with the last two leaders of this very institution, Stacey Cunningham, and now Lynn Martin, and our current chair, Sharon Bowen. Taking a walk down Wall Street, we arrive at the offices of ARK Invest CEO, Cathie Wood, one of the leading investment minds in finance and Ellevest's CEO and Co-founder, Sallie Krawcheck, who understands that putting money in women's hands is one of the most strategically sound ways to get a nest egg.
To all these women, 'like a girl', is a sign of strength. Our guest today, Dalia Feldheim knows well the uphill battle women face in the workplace. And like the guests we just mentioned, strives to change what people think when they hear that schoolyard taunt. In her book, Dare to Lead Like a Girl, How to Survive and Thrive in the Corporate Jungle, Feldheim takes the reader through her two decades long corporate career, largely spent at Procter and Gamble, that NYSE to assemble P&G, Dalia discusses her positive and negative experiences, her lessons learned, and how she has continued to coach and mentor both the current and future generations of women leaders. Our conversation with Dalia Feldheim is coming up right after this.
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Connecting the opportunity is just part of the hustle.
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Josh King:
Welcome back inside the ICE House. Remember to subscribe wherever you listen, and rate and review us on Apple Podcast helps get more viewers to hear inside the ICE House. Our guest today, Dalia Feldheim, spent 17 years at Procter and Gamble. That's NYSE ticker symbol, P&G, leading some of its most iconic advertising campaigns. Dahlia's book, Dare to Lead Like A Girl, How to Survive and Thrive in the Corporate Jungle is out from Rowman and Littlefield Publishers, and is available wherever you get your books. Welcome, Dahlia, inside the ICE House.
Dalia Feldheim:
Thank you. It's great to be here.
Josh King:
I know that for you, coming to New York this week with all that's going on back in Israel has been excruciating. How are you doing? How's the family doing?
Dalia Feldheim:
I'm okay. I'm broken. Very challenging. I have two kids and a husband recruited. So, this last few weeks have been a rollercoaster of emotions. So intense, I never thought possible. From extreme sadness to fear. I think just the idea... And I'll share openly, I don't know of any parents in Israel not waking up with nightmares of someone coming into your home slaughtering. So, I think this has been a complete challenge for all of us, and I had a lot of dilemmas whether to come. And I think it was my husband who told me that I have to, because this is what lead like a girl is all about.
And I'm happy you asked because I am here also to share the notion that sadly this is not just a Israel challenge. Sadly this is a challenge for the world, because it is the definition of the fight on humanity. What types of values do we want to sustain as a... And the idea that someone can come into your home, into your safe room, should be completely unacceptable in any society, no matter your views.
Josh King:
Dalia, there's a long story about how the statue of Fearless Girl got to Broad Street in New York City, staring up at the facade of the New York Stock Exchange like she does. A lot of people have a lot of interpretations of what that young woman means. But you posted a photo of yourself with her on Instagram today. What does she mean to you when you're making this trip, when you're standing next to a Fearless Girl?
Dalia Feldheim:
My ex-boss, Paul Polman, the ex CEO of Unilever, actually he told me something really incredible, that the word courage is probably the most misunderstood word in the business world. People perceive it as making decisions that others don't, or going ahead of the troops. But the word courage, as he taught me, actually comes from the French word curl, which means hearts because the really courageous leaders are those who lead from the heart. So for me, it's really this courage to continue believing in light and love, even when everything around you is crumbling. It's the idea of connecting to your core. And the whole book is basically around this courage to connect to your core even in the toughest time.
So, this Fearless Girl standing in front of whether it's the mist or the limitations, we know all the limitations that still exist in the business world and girls have... And that's why I called it Dare to Lead like a Girl and not a woman because when we're young, we do believe we're fearless, and then we start the workplace, and we hear all these negativity biases that everyone experiences. And I want us to go back women as well as men into this original state of being fearless to be who you really are and being fearless to lead from the hearts.
Josh King:
I was watching your TED talk from a couple of years ago. In it you said that women score higher than men on 17 out of the 19 leadership traits including boldness, integrity, honesty, and resilience. How much a role did these results have in the lessons you're trying to teach through your writing?
Dalia Feldheim:
So when I read this research, Folkman et al., it's actually fascinating. In 2012 when they did the research for the first time, they found women's scored as well as men in 2019 when they repeated, that's where they found that women score higher than men. The reality of the workplace has changed, meaning we're working remotely, we're working agile people, skills become the defining skill of a leader, right? A leader doesn't manage the business, he manages the people that manage the business, Simon Sinek.
So, these skills, these soft skills become fundamental to becoming a leader. So, it's really is about how can we ensure every single manager, and that's what I do today, the manager to lead a training. How do we make sure that every manager that wants to progress to become a people leader acquires these soft skills in order to advance? That is what my life mission is about. It's about humanizing the workplace. So, both men and women succeed. It's not about only women advancement. When we create more human workplaces where people can thrive, everyone wins. And today we're not there sadly.
Josh King:
Humanizing the workplace starts pretty early and it has to at least in the way you've lived your life. You talked about how when you were a youngster, your mom loved the child psychology books by the eminent pediatrician, Dr. Benjamin Spock. My late father also pediatrician was a follower of Dr. Spock. He like your mom, believed in his concept of healthy neglect. The idea that leaving your kid alone to develop their own sense of creativity was probably a pretty good idea. I don't know how it's really turned out with me, but how do you think that this parenting style helped you grow and navigate your career?
Dalia Feldheim:
So, it was always about aspiring to be your best, but given me also the confidence to be who I am. And that story specifically, my mom was a working mom, so I always saw the importance of fulfilling your full potential, but she would finish work at around two, and she would have a nap every day. I had to stay in my room quietly, and the amount of Barbie dolls that I cut their hair or sheets that I cut up. But I sat there and I played for two hours, and I had to entertain myself. I think today as parents, we try to fill up their time and solve all their challenges. I think it's this notion of healthy neglect became, I don't know if I'm creative because of that, but it became an important element in enabling me to just bring out the best.
And I find until today, those quiet moments, are my most creative. When I was breastfeeding, when I was a young mom, my best ideas came to me at 4:00 AM as I was breastfeeding my kids. The biggest campaign we did in Russia at the time was called Be the Star You are. And that idea came to me at 4:00 AM. So, there's something about we are constantly in the rush of life. We don't stop to breathe and there's a reason. There's the arts of doing nothing. So, I think that's something we need to adopt.
Josh King:
I certainly see some healthy neglect in my own daughter. And she doesn't hive herself away in a room, we have a little place upstate. We have a big garage and it has a workbench, and she just sits at that workbench for hours and we don't hear a word from her, she's just had her own business. As you got older Dalia, you began reaching extraordinary heights in gymnastics. At the age of eight, I think, you earned a spot on the artistic gymnastics team with the thought of perhaps winning a national championship. You ultimately came in second, and mention in your book, how it was really the only failure that still resonates with you from your childhood. What stands out about that moment, and why does it still stick with you to this day?
Dalia Feldheim:
The idea that everyone had hopes in me, that I didn't want to disappoint, and I was destined to take first place. And then in my last apparatus, I got stuck with the rope, lost half a point and came in second, and my trainer came in screaming at shouting, "How did you get stuck? You never get stuck. It's so unfair. You should have gotten first place." And it was my mom that actually came in between and said, "What are you talking about? It was her first competition, and she's already second in the country. We're going out to celebrate. Are you coming?"
And I think that was this whole notion of, my mom always say it doesn't matter if you win or lose as long as you give your best. And for me, given my best was always, I needed to know, I can look myself in the mirror and say I gave it my best shot. What happens later sometimes doesn't completely rely on you, but that's something that I try to also educate my kids, that sometimes the result doesn't matter as much as did you give it your best shot? So, that stayed with me.
Josh King:
Touching a little bit about the first thing that you and I talked about what's going on in Israel right now. You served also as a platoon commander with the Israeli Defense Forces. My cousins, both male and female, also served in the IDF. In what ways did your military experience shape your understanding of what it means to lead like a girl?
Dalia Feldheim:
So, I think one story that stuck in my mind was I had a soldier that was from a very poor background, and she didn't really understand military discipline, and she did something that was completely against the rule. She brought in her boyfriend on the weekend into the room and my base commander's like, "She needs to go to jail. That's an offense." And I told her, "Give me a moment please."
And I was a sergeant at the time and we do drills. So, I took it to do one-on-one drills that night. But during the drills I also had a heart-to-heart conversation with her. "You have an opportunity to serve as equal." And we were just going back and doing the drills and talking, and she was the toughest person ever. And after an hour, she burst into tears, and we continued the drilling until four in the morning, and the next morning when I went to the cafeteria, usually only your own platoon salutes you. And she literally saw me from afar, and she got everyone to stand up and salute, and she became the best soldier in the group. She stayed in touch with me also later.
She taught me this important lesson about people. All people have a gift, all people have potential. It's just about believing in them. Every person need that person that will believe in them. So, I think that also influenced my leadership style, and I had many... One of my favorite employees was one exactly the same story, that my boss said she needs out, she's not a right fit. And we created the opportunities for her to show that she's the right fit, and she's still a very senior employee in the company. And I think that's the notion of leadership, is about finding the potential in your employees and bringing out their best self.
Josh King:
Talking about bursting into tears, let's talk about you for a second. In 1998, you landed this job as associate brand manager atP&G. In your book you bring up this conversation with Jim Lafferty, your boss at the time, after a project that you were walking on really hit a wall. And you write that you began to tear up in his office, and he offered you a tissue box and told you not to be embarrassed about it, saying that it's a sign of your passion and your passion is your superpower, Dalia. Thinking back on that conversation, how did that impact the way that you chose to lead in the corporate world?
Dalia Feldheim:
So, I was very lucky that I had many managers like Jim that believed in me, sometimes more than I believed in myself. That specific conversation, and having Jim as my first boss, they always say the determinator of your success is your first boss. So, every time I do for manager to lead a training, I tell them, "You may be raising the next CEO." So, having someone that believed in you to that extent that yeah, passion is your superpower. And I heard it many times after that. And so, I knew whatever the environment was, it was about me bringing in what I thought was important. It was me having the courage to speak up, that it's not about... And we talk a lot about diversity these days. It's not about plunking one, two, three women there. It's really about the inclusion of listening to their different point of view.
And I knew I had a different way of seeing things. I tended to look more at the human factor. And I knew I had a responsibility, often as the only woman on the team, to share that perspective. So I think, that's where I realized... I call my years in P&G, the years of flow. Flow is when you're totally aligned with my purpose. My purpose was people empowerment. And Jim actually years later, just before he resigned, he created a course on manager to leader training, and I invited him to train that and then we co-trained it. And then, I continued that training after he left.
So that became this manager to leader, this idea that we can train any person to acquire these soft skills, to acquire these people skills. P&G was actually really... Companies asked me today, what was the secret there? And it was very simple. They had two ways, we would do an assessment at the end of the year, talent review. And each talent was rated on two things. One was building the business, which is all about the KPIs, et cetera, the business results. But there was also a score for building the organization. So, how are you as a coach? How are you investing in building the organization? And if you were not top-rated in both, you would not get promoted. It's as simple.
So, if you had amazing business results, but you were really crappy with people, you would not move up. And I think that's such a simple principle that any company must adopt, because we talk about it all the time, but if we don't turn this insight into action, it doesn't work. So, I think that shaped a lot of my expectation that I need to invest at least 50% of my time in building the organization. And that's when I became somewhat of a training junkie. I trained every single course that happened in P&G, from presentation skills to manager to leader. We had a course called Women Supporting Women, which was all about belonging in the workplace. As a marketeer, I was able to live my purpose, both in building my team, but also doing campaigns like Always Run like a Girl. So I think being able, if you ask me the secret to the success, the first part if you like of my career, was that I was enabled to and inspired to live my purpose every single day.
Josh King:
Well, that may be the first part of your career, but let's maybe fast-forward. You're in your boss's office meeting just as you did with Jim almost two decades before. And like that conversation, Dalia, you begin to tear up a little bit. He like Jim gives you a tissue box, but this time the box said, Dahlia's tissue box. Take us back to that moment and how you felt as that happened.
Dalia Feldheim:
So, in his room he started giving me feedback. Now, I love feedback. We used to call it in P&G, tough love feedback. Feedback should be direct and honest, but it needs to come from a position of love and care. And I can tell you there was no love in that day. It was just really denigrate and humiliating, belittling. And I'm holding it in, because now I'm a C-suite, one of the only C-suite in his team. And then he starts insulting my team, and I don't know about you, but that's where I became a lioness because I felt it was so unfair. And that is my reaction for frustration. Some people react to frustration by slamming the door, by anger. It is proven that women react to frustration with sadness, with tears. It's a normal reaction.
And I was sitting there tearing up, and he offered me this box of tissues. And for a moment I had this warm fuzzy feeling, remembering Jim. But then I noticed something weird in his smile. And when he turned this box and I saw Dalia's tissue box, and when I share it, people go, "Ah." I said the same, I said, "Are you kidding me? This is an HR assault." And he kind of leaned back and he's like, "Oh, Dalia, stop being so emotional. It's just boy banter. I know you have a sense of humor." Now, he wasn't a bad person, in the sense that he believed care has given me the highest bonus each year. His value system was just very different, and he kept trying to change me into someone I'm not. And suddenly all my strengths were not only not appreciated, they were totally denigrated. So suddenly, I was Ms. Kumbaya, because I was too positive, I was too good with my people, I was too creative. And in that situation, you cannot function. So, slowly I started to lose my mojo.
And the interesting thing there, I decided I'm not going to quit. Why should I quit? He should, right? I really liked my job, I loved what I was doing. I brought in a lot of people from P&G, so I was determined to stay. And I stayed there for three years, because I'm a feisty little one. And I said, "I will manage to coach myself out of this situation." And I can tell you first year was a little bit of fights, giving feedback, trying to change the environment. And I learned you can't change someone that doesn't want to change. I was just banging my head against the door. Second year was a little bit about flight, so I tried to avoid conflict. I hired a data scientist. He wanted science. I was determined to bring back my heart and my arts. And at the end of the year, the business results were great, but I felt physically sick. I realized I wasn't bringing myself to work.
And it was only the third year when I actually attended the P&Galumni event of my previous company of P&G. That's why I'm here this week, because I'm going to present in the next alumni event. But attending that and hearing all my ex-leaders talk about servant leadership, and take care of your people and the business takes care of yourself, made me realize I was a frog in boiling water and I needed to jump. But I am very result driven, so I said I'm not going to jump before I deliver everything I committed, because I realized that when you're so busy defending yourself, they thought I delivered. I knew I gave them 10% of my ability. So, I stayed. We created a campaign that was very data-driven, but also very creative. And when that won an award, I realized I found back my mojo, and it was time to move on.
But I guess this situation, reflecting back on it, I have tons of learnings. They're all summarized in the book. I learned that the importance of being yourself, operating from your strengths. Only when I was able to go back to my strengths and lead with my passion and authenticity, was I able to succeed. I also learned that empathy alone does not work. That together with empathy you need to have zero tolerance to bullying, and that's a really important learning. Also, when we talk about the situation currently with all my empathy that I have for both sides, we need to have zero tolerance to terror. We need to have zero tolerance to bullying. We need to define what is against the rule and that we need to eradicate completely.
So I think for me, it was also a very important learning that zero tolerance looks like, sorry, but you're not going to talk to me like this. I'm leaving the room, and I'm going to come back when you're ready to have a respectful conversation, [inaudible 00:24:00]. And I think that's something that I didn't do as well. So, I'm reflecting both on what I did well and both about what I didn't.
Josh King:
In terms of learnings, Dalia, you cast them all in one of the chapters in your book in a category of what you call the five Ps to manage tough situations. What we just discussed is obviously one of the tough situations that you're inking. Talk about the other five Ps, and how they help people lead like a girl.
Dalia Feldheim:
The last year was almost like an experiment for me on how do I deal with this situation. So I developed this... I don't like to say develop because it's based on philosophers, psychologists, all agree it takes mind, body, and soul. But I called it five Ps. It's easy to remember, coming from marketing. The first P is really about purpose, and we talked that briefly. He who has a why can enjoy anyhow says Nietzsche, and Viktor Frankl refers to it in his book. Having a purpose really is what made me go through the challenge in time. And in that case it was about taking care of my team, knowing that I was the main breadwinner at the time. So, I think that's a very important, and what I do currently with companies, the like of Google, is really work on what is every employee's personal purpose, and how can we align it to a company purpose and a team purpose. So, that's the first thing.
Second is really the perspective, okay? This is around understanding, stepping back from the situation. I always say step out of the drama so you can understand the movie. When you're in the situation, it's like you're in the waterfall. The emotions are falling on you. You need to step back behind the waterfall so you can understand where you are, so you can develop a growth mindset. So you can develop this, learn to fail or fail to learn, that we talked about.
The third P is really power up, which is all around how do I manage my energy? Because we know fatigue is the disease of the 21st Century. We're all burnt out. And the reason is, we're having to deal with a challenge and toxic environments. We see this. That's the number one driver of the great resignation, toxic environment. But the other side of it is that we don't take enough care of ourselves of this concept. It's not selfish to take care of self, it's self-full. So, it's everything from stopping to breathe, eating properly, sleeping, touch, movement, et cetera. So, that's the third P.
The fourth P is people, and we know that, but the number one driver of happiness in general, but also happiness at work is people. And this is the famous Q12. Question number 12 by Gallup was, do you have a best friend at work? And CEOs were like, "What is this stupid question?" But they found that that was the number one driver of happiness at work. So, what do you as a leader do to get to know your people as human beings, to foster human relationship?
And then the last P is the secret sauce, which I call positivity, which is not about being happy-happy all the time. And I had to practice very hard these last three weeks. It's really given ourself, I call it being emotionally brave, to recognize all emotions. I went through everything this last three weeks in an intensity that I didn't know exists, and it's okay. My mentor, Tal Ben-Shahar, says, "Who doesn't have negative emotions? Only dead people or psychopaths." So if you are sad, that's great news in a way. So, give it the space to be sad, to be angry, to be scared. I can tell you, I'm quite a brave person and I've been living with extreme fear that we spoke about, and it's really making space for that.
But then, and this is the big when is the right time and how, but once you accepted your negative emotions, how can you create an upward spiral of positivity by inserting, looking for... And it's not about toxic positivity of, hey, be happy. But it's really about believing that good would prevail, believing that something... There's a concept called post-traumatic growth. We all know about post-traumatic stress disorder, but actually post-traumatic growth is not resilience where you bounce back to where you were before, but it's where you actually use your pain in a way to grow to a higher level of where you were before. And when I learned of that concept, I actually try to apply it on myself. So, even in the tough situation that we're now trying to see what good can come out of this situation, trying to... So, it's hope it's given. If there's one bright point in this sad environment, is seeing everyone recruited, from children to everyone doing whatever they can to help others, it's beautiful.
We have the root of the word to give in Hebrew is natan, N-A-T-A-N. It's a palindrome, because given is a two-way journey. So, when you're really in despair, being able to give is a big driver of resilience. And then the last one I would say is gratitudes, and it's extremely hard. But gratitude is about stopping for a moment to stop and smell the roses, to see what is working. And that's where the positive psychology started in Africa, where they tried to understand why all the investments is not working, because they kept on asking what's not working. And when they shifted the question to say, how come some kids are succeeding despite the circumstances, what is working? And just shifting that dynamic, really helped them understand what was important for success, or for wellbeing in general.
So just in general, and I love Tal Ben Shahar's quote, the double meaning of the word appreciate. When we appreciate the good in our life, the good in our life appreciates. So, in these tough times that we wake up crying and having people around us, the support to each other, the amazing given, the support of many friends around the world, these are very meaningful moments. So, how can we bring more of that positivity into our life?
Josh King:
You alluded to it earlier, Dalia, but I want to focus on some of those campaigns that you've mentioned. Beginning with Procter and Gamble, you handle brands such as Always, All Days, and Tampax with the goal of promoting sales in the Israel and West Bank markets. And to do so you focused on Israeli women entering the IDF, as well as Orthodox Jewish women. Walk us through how you broke into these markets, and why you were able to achieve so much success with them.
Dalia Feldheim:
I'll tell you a story because it's linked to the first point on purpose. So, we saw we were losing share among 18 year olds. Where are they in Israel? They're in the army. So I said, okay, "We need to..." They start earning their own money and then they buy cheaper product because that's more available. So I said, "How do we sample them in a way that will be meaningful?" And that's where we thought, okay, every drafted woman, when she just enters and she gets her uniform, can we give her also pads? Pads, pantyliners, tampons. In order to persuade the army, we needed to come up with an idea, a win-win.
And so, I came up with the idea of giving it in a very nice kind of wash bag, every soldier needs, with special compartments for the product, and the army agreed. And two months before we launched the campaign, I was sitting in the office one day and I said, "Okay, I want to add somewhat of a personal note to this." And I started writing and I literally fell asleep in the office. And my boss, the same Jim, came at 06:00 in the morning. He's like, "Dalia, what are you doing?" It's like, "Oh, I'm just giving an example to the agency of what I want this letter to look like." And he said, "Can I read it?" And he started crying. Because I wrote a very personal, ex-platoon commander, where I talked about hygiene and why it's important, but I also talked about the empowerment. So, a little bit like the drilling discussion about serving the country, being a woman, et cetera, and being equal.
And I'll tell you, we launched the campaign, two days after we launched our service line was inundated with calls. They called me into the office and I was speaking, and we were inundated with calls by soldiers and their moms saying, "Thank you for being there in such an important moment." And it was literally connecting to that moment where you're alone. You know we serve women as well as men. You left your family, you're wondering who will take care of me? And that's when I realized I'm not in the business of selling pads, I'm in the business of women empowerment.
And that story continued later on with the Orthodox, because I was just getting married and even though I'm not religious, we go to the rabbi's wife, and that's where she told us we all need to go to the Mikvah, which is a purifying bath. And I said, "Okay, we cannot talk to the Orthodox women through regular media." Because you can't just sample, show up in the house. So, that's where we came up with the idea to go talk to them in the Mikveh. And we went there, and we created a whole program and we sampled. And I arrived, and then they started asking me questions about my life. And I told them that how I worked, et cetera.
A year later I was visiting the Mikvehs just to see how it was going. And in one of them, this lady comes to me and she says, "Mazel tov." And she said, "I see you got married." She remembered me for a year before, she noticed that I had a wedding ring. And she said, "I just wanted you to know that your talk made me decide to delay my marriage in order to finish my studies. And now my husband is fully supportive of me finishing my studies, and starting to work."
And I can tell you, those two examples were that we, through human connections, these simple human connections, that's where I understood my purpose, is really about people and women empowerment. And that led me throughout my career, whether I was on Pampers or then working in Russia, then working in India, doing women empowerment campaigns, and then finally was the Always Like a Girl.
Josh King:
Talking about the business of women empowerment. Powerful women are all over the professional tennis courts. Big news this year, Dalia, the Wimbledon relaxed its all white clothing rules for women's under shorts. When you were at P&G as the Femcare marketing director for Asia, and you mentioned this, you launched Whisper's Touch the Pickle campaign in India. I watched the campaign this morning, which won big awards and broke even bigger taboos in its culture. What prompted it and how did your experiences in India shape the message you were trying to get across with it?
Dalia Feldheim:
2011, I was the global marketing director. India was my biggest market, and I flew to the market for the first time. And I can tell you I immediately fell in love with the women of India. The first picture I remember was traveling at night, and this young girl was trying to read a book, but she didn't have any light. So, she was literally reading to the light of the passing cars. That stuck in my mind as the commitment to succeed against all odds. And the next day we went to do in-home visits. And we walk in, and I see the girl that we came to talk to sitting on the floor, her mom came in and she serves as food and drink in nice China plates. And then she bends over and she offers her in metal plates on the floor. And I noticed that she's sitting against this blue wall, and where she was seated, the color was fading as if she sits there quite often.
So, I was wondering what's going on? And towards the end of the interview, her aunt came in and her uncle. And for a brief moment when she said hello to her uncle, she had this sad, embarrassed look on her face. When we left, I went to my agency partner and I said, "Well, what was that all about?" And she's like, "She's on her period." And I was like, "So what?" And that's when she told me, "We have all this myth about periods, that a woman on a period is impure, so she's not allowed to go into the prayer areas, and often she doesn't sleep or eat with the family. She doesn't go to school during her period," talk about equality when she misses a week, a month. And then as a joke, she says, "Hey, we even believe they're not allowed to touch pickles, because the menses will make them go rotten."
I can tell you, it's so hard already having your period, and then literally everyone sees it, and then you talk about not being left behind and then you miss a week, a month. So, that night I couldn't sleep. That was this picture of the frustrated this girl being left behind just because she's a girl. So, the next morning I called my agency, I'm like, "I didn't sleep all night." She said, "Yeah, me too." And I said to her, "Listen, I'm a foreigner and I understand it's cultural, but can we do something." I have the purpose, I'm not in the business of selling pads. I'm in the business of women empowerment. My passion was women empowerment. My strengths was this insight, and what the world needed was very evident. It was about refuting these myths.
So, one year later we came up with a campaign, and we called it, I Touched the Pickle. We decided to use humor to talk about... So, it was called Whisper Like a Pickle. And I can tell you I'm really proud of many things that I did in my career, but this one went crazy. Within moments it became the most viral ad. We had a Bollywood actress that almost beat up a reporter.
Josh King:
I saw that.
Dalia Feldheim:
We had women campaigning. I bleed, deal with it. So, it really started the conversation on women empowerment way before Me Too, in a market that really needed it. So, I share this because every one of us has a purpose. Basically, bring in our best self to work, is about bringing our purpose, is about bringing what we do best and helping the world, whatever it is. And it doesn't mean you need to leave your job and live in the Himalayas. Maybe you're passionate about wellbeing, and you do a program every Friday afternoon. And I just finished a year long program with Google, and the president just wrote to me. The energy that gets released when you know what your passion is, and you're able to create even one project a week aligned with your purpose, the energy that gets released is exponential. So, that's my passion, helping people find their purpose and passion at work.
Josh King:
One of your most famous campaigns was the Always #LikeAGirl campaign that you launched in 2014. It was one of the most viral ads of the year with almost 70 million views. I want to play one of the spots that was a 32nd spot.
Speaker 13:
Puberty, the fear of failure can be paralyzing for girls. Always want to change that. A girl reads to her class.
Speaker 14:
Failure. The one thing we call experience-
Speaker 13:
A girl plays in a football game.
Speaker 14:
We've failed at many things. We'll fail at many more, and that's a good thing, because failures aren't setbacks. Failures are fuel to keep going and keep growing.
Speaker 13:
Try, fail, learn, keep going, #LikeAGirl, Always.
Josh King:
Why do you think the campaign was so successful in drawing awareness and refraining with that phrase, 'like a girl'?
Dalia Feldheim:
So first of all, I don't like taking credit for the campaign, because it's really the agency. We follow in what we did in India and other work we did in Africa, we realized we want to elevate, from just solving the problem to really talk in women empowerment in a global level. And it was actually my president, Melanie Healey, that her daughter was about to play a football game and she got a period on her basketball, and she said, "I can't play." And her mom said, "You go up there and you play like a girl." And she was anecdotally sharing with the agency, and we put it into the brief.
And when the agency presented the campaign, I burst into tears. It was literally everything that I've been working for the last... It was 15 years at the time, manifested itself because... And until today, I can tell you I shared in the TED Talk that years later, my youngest daughter, Anna, called me from school, "Mom, they're showing you ad in social studies." More than a commercial. It really became an icon for women empowerment. And until today, I was just presenting it earlier, half still remembered the campaign. And I think it's because it really, the insight is brilliant. It's really this phrase became such a denigrating phrase, where actually we know that doing things like a girl. And Paul Polman said it, "Instead of trying to fix women, let's learn from them."
And I think for women and for men, realizing that these soft skills or the power skills of the 21st Century is very empowering. And that's what the book is all about. So, same with the campaign. It's not about hiding who we are, our sensitivity, our intuition, our teamwork, or exactly what is needed today. So, I think that's why the campaign still resonates, and that's what I... The book is basically a provocation, A, playing homage for this campaign, but B, really challenging us that lead like a girl, who said that lead like a girl is a weakness. So, until it doesn't become... And I can't tell you how many calls I got from men saying, "Thank you so much. Everyone used to say that I lead like a girl, now I'm so proud of it."
And I'll just share with you a little anecdote that when the Ted came out, I had a guy call me up from Australia. He was head of sales in a big company and he said, "Dalia, I just wanted to tell you I watched your Ted, I wanted to say thank you. I realized I'm an asshole, what do I do?" And we actually started working together, and today he decided to leave his job and he's asshole eradicator. That's what he calls himself. And I think he learned that there's another way of doing it, and actually it leads to better results.
So as a joke, or not as a joke, but I put in the book that if you have an asshole boss that you want to share this book with, I'll send it for free. Because I really believe that often people are just not aware of their behavior. They're not aware of the impact their behavior has on others. And I still believe the people are inherently good people. And it's really just sharing that, hey, you think that fear delivers results? Yeah, fear does, short term. But the better results you get with love. So, that's the whole premise of leading from the heart.
Josh King:
The better results you get with love. After the break, Dalia Feldheim and I will talk about the lessons learned in her book, and how to fight the change the #LikeAGirl narrative is going on today. That's all coming up right after this.
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Josh King:
Welcome back. Remember to subscribe to Inside the ICE House podcast wherever you listen, and rate and review us so other folks know where to find us. Just to recap where we were before the break, Dalia Feldheim and I were discussing her book, Dare to Lead Like a Girl, How to Survive and Thrive in the Corporate Jungle, and some of the successes, trials and tribulations she's had in her 20-year mark and career. Dalia, you teach a lot of lessons throughout the chapters. Let's talk about some of them beginning with this work-life balance as a parent. In fact, you dedicate all of chapter nine to that very lesson, and balancing the role of a parent with an everyday job is a struggle for so many. It is for my wife and for me. What are some of the things, the one or two things that you and your husband did to help separate the two things successfully?
Dalia Feldheim:
Well, I think first of all is realizing that you can only do the best in what you can do. And I'll tell you actually a story on this one because... So, it's basically the notion that we all try to be perfect, and sometimes good enough is good enough. And this lesson came from my son. He was eight years old, he was about to appear in a play. He was a tree in Peter Pan or something. And he insisted he really wanted us to come. And my husband was traveling that week, and the CEO was coming the same day, the CEO of P&G. And I was elected to present to him. So, I actually went to my president and I said, "Listen, I have to be at the school by four o'clock. Can I be first on the agenda?" And he's like, "Of course, no problem." I got first on the agenda that morning, my CEO's plane was delayed. He ended up coming in at 13:00. I presented to him, rushed to the school with my high heel, hair, et cetera, walked into the room just as my little tree was coming off the stage.
And I came in with such pathos that of course he saw me there, and I was crying and apologizing the whole way home. I was so devastated, because it was so important to me. And when we arrived home, he actually said, "Mom, you know what? I know you're not perfect, but I see you really tried." And that little kid made me realize that, the kids will forgive you if you forget the occasional dinner, but try to be there for the important moments. And that's where the first step was, I formed this idea of be there for the moments that count, and make the moments that you're there count.
So, the first part we talked about. The second part is too many parents leave early to take their kids to the park, and then they're busy on their phone the whole time. So, make the moments that you're there count mean basically being present. So, that was another principle. I would come home, close the phone for three hours, that's it. Between 18:00 and 21:00, my phone was shut and I was a 100% with them. And then, I would go back and no one died in three hours at work.
So, I think that's another really important principle. We read somewhere that the average parent spends only half an hour of quality time with the kids, and we made a commitment that that's not going to be our case. So, those three hours included playtime, dinners every night. So, I think that wasn't a big one.
The other big one, I would say, it takes a village to raise a child. Don't be afraid to ask for help, whether it's friends, whether it's having a helper. Very early on I learned that that was an investment more than anything else. So, I delegated everything that took time, because really the value of me folding washing versus the value of me playing on the carpet was huge. So, I tried to outsource whatever I could. That was another principle. But I think that the most important is redefining success. And for me, when I became a parent, I realized that for me, success wasn't just being the high achiever that I've been at work. That success now is about combining. So, it is a challenge. It's extremely challenging. But I provide 10 tips in the book that worked for me.
And I think the important thing is that it's very personal. The red line is very different from person to person. So, don't have the guilt. What works for you, work for you. And I'll just finish with another story that when my eldest was born, I was brand manager of Pampers, and I flew to Russia after six months to do in-home visits. And I'm sitting there behind the screen and all the mothers are talking about, "I'm never going to leave my daughter, at least two... Or my kid two years. I don't understand women that go back to work so early." And I'm literally sitting there behind, and I'm bowling with guilt.
And I had a friend of mine, Nada, a friend until today. She looks at me, she grabs me by the shoulder and she's like, "Dalia, if you want to be a working mom, zero guilt. When you're there, be there. When you're here, you're here. So now we're in Moscow, what do you want to do?" And I'm like, "I want to go to the Bolshoi." So, she booked me VIP tickets to the Bolshoi, and that became a principle. So when I was home, I was a 100% those three hours. But when I traveled, I always added two hours of something that would make it meaningful. If I'm already leaving them, make it meaningful. Those were some of my tips.
Josh King:
Somewhat related to the idea of presence, the way we are with kids when we walk into the house and put our phones aside, and devote those three hours to being really on in that way, is the countervailing idea of multitasking, and being distracted in some way, even from what your core idea is and what you're trying to focus on, has both positive and negative impacts, I think. If you've ever watched NBC's Parks and Recreation, I want to just hear what Ron Swanson has to say about the multitasking idea.
Ron Swanson:
I learned a lesson, never half-ass two things, whole-ass one thing. So, if you want to win that seat-
Speaker 20:
Which I do.
Ron Swanson:
Then commit yourself a 100%.
Josh King:
What are your thoughts on multitasking and whether it's beneficial or potentially a negative concept in corporate America today?
Dalia Feldheim:
So I'll tell you, I'm hyperactive. I discovered that I'm hyperactive. So, I'm constantly in the frenzy. And literally, maybe 10 years ago I started practicing yoga, and then teaching yoga. And today I'm a qualified yoga teacher. And I just found this notion of yoga in general, but taking the time to focus one action at a time. And then, when I studied positive psychology, it's actually proven in research that it takes you twice as much when you're jumping between tasks versus doing one task, finishing it, and then moving to the second one. And this great research about parenting, that parents that multitask are less happy in both tasks. So, it's not only less effective, but it's also your overall wellbeing.
So for me, as a hyperactive with two ADHD and a ADHD, it's really about this notion of finishing a circle. You're doing a task, make sure you complete the task. For me, it's very hard to meditate. They call it the a 1,000 oops, because you're constantly, your mind starts wandering. Oops, my mind wandered, and you bring yourself back, but as long as you keep coming back to it. So now, I meditate in action. So I do yoga as a way of meditating, an active yoga. You could do walking meditation. As long as you find a way... So what I do now, I have my arm on my neck, and I constantly touch it occasionally, and that reminds me to ground, to be in the moment. So, I saw people playing with their wedding ring. Every time they play, that's a cue.
So, give yourself whatever tips you need, whatever cues to say, hey, you're in your moment. Because the kids, and we did a campaign for it actually, where we showed how kids perceive dinnertime, and you see the dad picks up the phone suddenly and then the mom, and they stick an iPad in front of the baby. And from a lively conversation, everyone's in their own thing.
So, that campaign also made me realize, and we have a rule in the house, anyone who picks up their phone during their dinner times needs to pay us a fine. And since then, we even stopped bringing our phone to the dinner table. So, those are some of the things that be in the moment. The presence is the present. I think corporate America life in general, we know we don't take enough time. Another research in this context, Boston Group Consultant forced their employees to take one afternoon digital detox a week, productivity went up 74%. So, how can we make sure we leave the phone? No one will die in three hours except several businesses, but not-
Josh King:
I have a few people who could look at that BCG Research.
Dalia Feldheim:
Yes.
Josh King:
You talk about the imposter syndrome as well, and its impact on limiting a person's self-confidence and their belief in themselves. Why do you think we as humans naturally tend to attribute our successes externally? And how do we get rid of those limiting beliefs that we might have?
Dalia Feldheim:
So first of all, I always like to say, courage is not the absence of fear. We all have fears. Chapter five, I talk all about my fears. I discovered that I have a fear of failure being a perfectionist, but also a fear of success. It's linked. We all have these limiting beliefs that come usually from childhood, zero to five, something happened and you and your infantile brain created a connection. So in my case, if I had a case of jealousy, and I made a case that jealousy is painful, and that was the link that I made in my mind. And so, I would avoid being too successful to not have people jealous. And I work with clients today, everyone has some story they created in the mind.
So, imposter syndrome is one of them, where we're saying we've been lucky or we had an amazing team. Instead of saying, no, can't be that 17 years you were lucky. And I can tell you when I worked with my bully boss, he would tell me. He would try to bring me down in a way. And I started to develop a very serious imposter syndrome. And I had to remind myself, can't be that 17 years I was lucky. Can't be that 17 years my success was because of the team. But it really gets to your head.
So, when you're hitting imposter syndrome, whether externally driven or internally, because a lot of it is self-talk, is really reminding ourselves of our strengths. And I'll share with you one amazing research that I came across in INSEAD. One of my professors created this research. So MBA students, men as well as women, come in and equal, they have equal results coming in. And yet in the very competitive environment of the MBA, the men actually scored higher at the end. And she was really interested with that. So, she did a very simple intervention. Before each assignment, she encouraged them to discover their strengths and to solve the challenge using their strengths. And that little intervention led to the fact that at the end of those two years, the women ended up in the same level as men. Meaning, we tend to think that we need to behave like the other person is in order to succeed. So, one of the biggest ways to deal with imposter syndrome, which by the way, men experience as well as women, but women experience more. I think the numbers, if I remember correctly, is 50% for men, 70% for women.
So, the solution there is to remind ourselves of our strengths. And if I reflect on my challenges, third year was when I said I'm not going to change to become. I am who I am with my passion, creativity, authenticity, et cetera. And only when I was able to focus on my strengths was I able to succeed and overcome the imposter syndrome. So, that's my tip on how to deal with it.
Josh King:
So, as we begin to wrap up our conversation then, Dalia, based on what you saw as your corporate career progressed, as well as what you've seen since now moving away from it, all the work that you're doing, the consulting and speaking that you're doing. Do you think we're headed really in the right direction when it comes to leadership opportunities for women? Or we still have a long way to go?
Dalia Feldheim:
Still a long way to go, sadly. I think we're seeing progress. I think COVID made us realize with everything that came after COVID, so the great resignation, the silent resignation. And the research shows that the reason for the great resignation, the number one reason was toxic environments. And we know we're in a crisis in the workplace. We know the Gen Zs prefer to be entrepreneurs versus working in corporate America. So, I think the crisis is out there. We also know the solutions. My whole positive psychology leadership development program is around these solutions. So we have an issue, we have the solutions. The sad thing is budgets for training, resilience training, leadership training, is the first thing to get hit.
So, when we were in the crisis, I saw a surge in these training, and yet these are the elements we need to continue investing in them, because this is what creates the ripple effect. If you develop managers that are leaders, and there's a big difference between the two, that are great people leaders, then they develop their people, et cetera. So, I think I'm seeing progress, but sadly, this is the first thing that gets cut. And if we take it on a broader level, I talk about humanizing the workplace, the same challenges we're seeing in a global leadership.
Now they're not called bullies, they're called terror. But the idea that you can impose, that there's not a mutual respect. The same zero tolerance applies here, the same need to humanize society in general. And I think some people say to me, what is lead like a girl? If we had more women, would we have less wars? And I always say, it's not just about having this positive feminine, which is about empathy, it's float like a butterfly, sting like a bee. We need to know how to move between the positive feminine, which is about empathy, intuition, and the positive masculine, which is about assertiveness and the zero tolerance, et cetera.
So, I really see a need globally. But the good news and why I do what I do, is that we now have the tools, the proven tools. It's not rocket science, but it is science. The science of positive psychology, that we can teach ourselves to be happier, more resilient, and more positive in general. So, more work to do, but I'm optimistic.
Josh King:
Happier, resilient, more positive. That balances against, in some ways, you raised them, the great resignation, the silent resignation aspects that have become part of our vernacular since the COVID pandemic. And one of the visible leaders during the pandemic, New Zealand's Prime Minister, Jacinda Ardern, declined to seek reelection earlier this year. And I just want to hear a little of her interview last month with ABC's Robin Roberts.
Robin Roberts:
Which a lot of people can relate to, women in particular, just didn't have enough in the tank to do the job that she wanted to do. Some people turned that as burnout. How did you deal with that characterization?
Jacinda Ardern:
Yeah, I see them as very different. I could have kept going, but for me, having been through a period where we did experience a lot of crises in New Zealand, it was whether or not I had enough to do the job well. And the answer for me personally was no, it was time for someone else. So, a bit different than Verna.
Robin Roberts:
Yes, I would say so.
Josh King:
Is there double standard at play, Dalia? David Beckham is just done with football and wants to move on to other things, but Jacinda Ardern has run out of gas.
Dalia Feldheim:
I admire Jacinda. A lot of the book also mentions the fact that women tended to lead better in COVID because of the empathy, because of the seeking advice broadly. But I think it's very admirable that taking the time to say, "Hey, I have given my 100%, and I cannot be as effective as this country needs. So, bring in fresh blood." I think it's extremely admirable. We saw it also in the gymnastics with Wales with saying, "Hey, I need to take a break because I'm hurting my teammates if I'm not giving my 100%." So, I think it's actually an element of recognizing that A, we need to be, you can't pour out of an empty jug, that we need to be filled in. And B, the humility to say, I gave my 100%, now it's time for the next person to come. I think that is very brave.
Josh King:
A number of my female friends at Meta, leaders of the company, including the woman who wrote the Forward Review book, Sheryl Sandberg, Marne Levine, the advertising chief, Carolyn Everson, who left in 2021. A coincidence of their departures or part of a trend of women at the top of global companies stepping back?
Dalia Feldheim:
Let's put it the moose on the table. It is much harder for women in corporate and senior roles. The majority of housework, the limitations in the workplace, the biases. So, it is like running two marathons instead of one. And I think women are just saying to themselves, is it all worth it? Why? Because we define success holistically. We know. And I think that's part of it. And I don't say that men only care about career. That's not true. But I think there's an element there that is respectable in the sense of saying, I'm going to give it my best, and once I feel someone else will do a better job, that's my time to move on. Sticking to the job when you're not able to do the best is hurting everyone around you. So, I think there's an element there.
Yes, maybe there's an element of self. It's actually funny. My thesis at school in psychology was about self-imposed glass ceiling in the sense that, it's not that we don't have the abilities of getting to the top, we do, but is it all worth it? And there's some stage that we say, the way we define success doesn't justify it anymore. And I think that is something that we recognize across the board. And I wish for men and for women to make sure that during the climb we're investing in ourselves so that we can continue giving. But when the time to move on has come, the time to move on has come. And that's I think, admirable.
Josh King:
Wise advice for men and women, investing in ourselves.
Dalia Feldheim:
Yeah, completely.
Josh King:
Thanks so much for joining us inside the ICE House.
Dalia Feldheim:
Thank you so much. Lovely being here.
Josh King:
And that is our conversation for this week. Our guest was Dalia Feldheim, author of Dare to Lead Like a Girl, How to Survive and Thrive in the Corporate Jungle. If you like what you heard, please rate us on Apple Podcasts so other folks know where to find us. And if you've got a comment or question you'd like one of our experts to tackle on a future show, make sure to leave a review. Email us at [email protected] or tweet at us @ICEHousePodcast. Our show is produced by Lance Glenn with production assistance, editing and engineering from Ken Abel. I'm Josh King, your host, signing off from the Library of the New York Stock Exchange. Thanks for listening. We'll talk to you next week.
Speaker 1:
Information contained in this podcast was obtained in part from publicly available sources and not independently verified. Neither ICE, nor its affiliates, make any representations or warranties, express or implied as to the accuracy or completeness of the information, and do not sponsor, approve or endorse any of the content herein, all of which is presented solely for informational and educational purposes. Nothing herein constitutes an offer to sell, a solicitation of an offer to buy any security or a recommendation of any security or trading practice. Some portions of the proceeding conversation may have been edited for the purpose of length or clarity.
