Speaker 1:
From the library of the New York Stock Exchange, at the corner of Wall and Broad Streets in New York City, you're Inside the ICE House. Our podcast from Intercontinental Exchange on markets, leadership, and vision and global business. The dream drivers that have made the NYSE an indispensable institution of global growth for over 225 years. Each week we feature stories of those who hatch plans, create jobs, and harness the engine of capitalism. Right here, right now, at the NYSE and at ICE's 12 exchanges and six clearing houses around the world. And now welcome, Inside the ICE House. Here's your host, Josh King of Intercontinental Exchange.
Josh King:
Those who listen regularly to our show, know I take a minute or two at the top to establish a plausible connection between our ICE House guests and what we do here at Intercontinental Exchange. Sometimes, it's easy, as when Tony Blair was in here to talk about a Hard Brexit, or David Rubinstein dropped by to talk about taking Carlisle's portfolio companies public. Other times, like when Daytona 500 champion Denny Hamlin was talking about the pickup basketball league he runs in his parquet floor at home gym. Well, the linkage gets a little thinner.
Josh King:
It's perfectly clear this week. Imagine you are a big hedge fund manager, maybe Dudley Mafee over Taylor Mason Capital Management, or even bigger, Bobby Axelrod himself in his glass lined office at Axe Cap. If you are one of these heavy hitters, you're not only constantly monitoring the markets, you've got your eye on global weather patterns. Particularly, in the South China and Philippine seas, where so much of global oil moves from port-to-port, aboard super tankers. Hedge fund guys like you and gender non-binary people like Taylor have probably got a hurricane map up on your screen, checking how gathering storms could interrupt deliveries, offshore platforms, vessels, even underwater transmission lines.
Josh King:
If the weather looks dicey, you hedge with 20 million or so in futures contracts on Brent Crude, to throw off your risk. Any potential interruption is another opportunity for arbitrage. And so, for that matter, is the reputational risk if, say, news leaked that a large industrial cleaning firm was forcing kickbacks of salary and benefits from it's undocumented workers. If you were paying close attention to the writing, direction, or production design of Billions, season four, episode two. That kind of detail you'd pick up on. And I pay close attention to the show, in my humble opinion, the best episodic drama on television today, and certainly in the conversation of the best shows of the last 20 years. Up there with The Sopranos, Deadwood, Breaking Bad, The Wire, and Mad Men. Today is a special day at the bell podium at the New York Stock Exchange, several of the leading cast members. Along with one of the creators and executive producers, the show runners of Billions, David Levien rang our opening bell to celebrate the boffo debut of season four. And straight from the floor, David's come here, Inside the ICE House. Right after this.
Speaker 3:
Twilio is a cloud communications platform that allows software developers to embed any kind of communications into every software application they build. We see ourselves at day one of a future of communications, which is powered by software. And so we are going to continue to build out globally, more ways of communicating. The New York Stock Exchange is a critical part of our global economy. It's amazing for a company to get to be a part of that long tradition. Twilio is listed on the New York Stock Exchange.
Josh King:
To watchers of Billions, fans of Rounders, listeners to The Moment, readers of books like City of the Sun or Signature Kill, or followers of our guests on Twitter, Brian Koppelman and David Levien need no introduction. For everyone else, make do with this. Two best friends, kids who grew up together, have seen the highs and lows of the entertainment industry from every discernible angle and came out on top. While today, they're the toast of the town, Emily Nussbaum with The New Yorker wrote last week that Showtime's Billions, now beginning its fourth season, is the rare series that the term "guilty pleasure" fits nicely.
Josh King:
Brian shared, on a recent interview, that it was just a few years ago that their agent called him and David with the unwelcome news that they were, and I quote, "unhirable." How do you respond to that when you're Koppelman and Levien, you hold yourselves up, write a knock your socks off pilot, and don't give two bits what agents say. It's not how it's done, or suits trying to give you notes to prove their Ivy League english degrees haven't gone for not. A response right out of the Bobby Axelrod playbook, welcome to the ICE House, David.
David Levien:
Well, thank you so much for having me. This is great. I'm so conflicted right now though, because you gave such a wonderful introduction and you were nice enough to mention all of the shows that we love. Seriously, our favorite shows, the shows that we aspire to try to get in the company of. But you removed your suit jacket to be comfortable, and I see gigantic Boston Red Sox cuff links, almost like a slap in the face to a lifelong Yankee fan.
Josh King:
Opening day tomorrow, man, I'm sorry.
David Levien:
So we're sitting across the table, maybe his adversaries.
Josh King:
Maybe Chuck and Axe will figure out if Yankee Stadium or Fenway Park had a great dispute.
David Levien:
Exactly, maybe we'll find a place to bond somehow. But thank you for having me.
Josh King:
I've got billions of questions, David. Let's start with this, how is it to be in front of the camera for once on the floor, ringing the opening bell of the New York Stock Exchange today?
David Levien:
Well, it was a great honor, I got to say. It's a little uncomfortable, I chose to make my life behind the camera, so it's a little odd. I was happy to have my strong shouldered castmates with me, David Costabile, Kelly AuCoin, and Toby Leonard Moore. Those are the guys that everybody on the floor wanted to see. They're the stand-ins, the traders, and the COOs, the hedge fund guys, that really do this job. But it was a real honor to be there and a thrill of a lifetime to ring the bell.
Josh King:
The trading community on the floor, you and I talked about it while we were looking out, used to be 5,000 people, it's dramatically less than that. But you saw the reaction of them to Kelly and David, do you get this sense, as you film on location or visit places with them, how much the show means to a certain segment of the New York financial community?
David Levien:
Well, it's great. Whenever we shoot on location in New York, you can feel that it's really a show that's embraced by New Yorkers. They love it. They shout out, which is not a New York thing to do. They call out the characters by name, they want to have a moment. And then they give us the ultimate New York respect, which is they quietly move on and let us shoot this scene. They don't stand there and rubberneck, which is all you could ask for, from somebody near your set. But to see these guys here on the floor, it's amazing. They were like the Beatles out there today. They were getting mobbed, they couldn't actually get off the floor because of how many people wanted selfies with them.
Josh King:
You make a lot of statements in your script about how the business works, sometimes it's not all that flattering. Do you ever get any blow back from actual practitioners about the way you're portraying their industry?
David Levien:
In the beginning, when we started putting feelers out to sit with hedge fund managers and various people in the business, prosecutors too, there was a lot of reluctance and people were saying... We heard it coming back to us, people were saying, "That's not me. That's not based on me. I never talk to those guys." And then after the show came out and was a hit, suddenly it became, "You know that was based on me." Or, "You should sit with me, I've got stories to tell you." So it's been a great reception. We protect the people who tell us stories, we always protect our sources. So we'd never look to hurt anybody. But to see the way it's received... Nobody seems to have a problem with the misdeeds that the characters do. I think people understand that some of it is in the name of drama. And certainly, if a lot of it's true then the people who like the show are certainly saying that they don't do that stuff.
Josh King:
You've now had a couple hours to walk around our 110 year old building, been on the floor for a while, spent some time on the sixth and seventh floors that are the historic floors of the building. Any location ideas beginning to percolate for season five?
David Levien:
Well, I don't want to give any spoilers, but you clearly were feeding us some behind the scenes locations. And I don't want to say that you made a binding offer when you were talking about a certain private restaurant here, but if we contact you and our producers get in touch, then we might have to hold you to it.
Josh King:
I will always pick up the phone when April Taylor calls me.
David Levien:
Yeah. Well, you have to or else she'll show up.
Josh King:
She shows up anyway.
David Levien:
Yeah.
Josh King:
So let's get to season four in a minute, but let me begin with a warning, I don't usually offer to ICE House listeners. Spoiler alert, if you haven't already seen episodes one and two, press pause on the podcast app, head over to Showtime Anytime, and get yourself caught up. And that being done, David, share with our listeners where season three left off and where we find our heroes and anti-heroes. Axe has been bested by Taylor with the help of John Malkovich's Grigor. And Chuck has been forced to hang up his own shingle, thanks to the vindictiveness of Attorney General Clancy Brown as Jeffcoat.
David Levien:
Nice. Well, people who've watched the show would know that Axe and Chuck were the worst of enemies for the first two and a half, two and three quarter seasons. But then by the vagaries of the battles that they face, they come to a place at the end of the third season where they recognize that the way forward is by joining forces, by ceasing their blood feud, and by pooling their enormous resources. And it's almost, in a way, you could see that the world barely stands a chance when these two guys, with their smarts and their toolkits come together.
David Levien:
So season four starts with these guys in this unlikely alliance. They're both laying in their bull works for battle against their enemies. Season four is very clearly about revenge from the start. They each have their sets of enemies. Axe has a target on Taylor for the betrayal that he perceives that Taylor perpetrated against them. And Chuck, with his former colleagues, Jock Jeffcoat, the attorney general of the United States, and Bryan Connerty. One of those spoilers gets sworn in as the new US attorney for the Southern District. He's after them, these guys are going to stop at nothing to get their enemies, and they're going to help each other in the process.
Josh King:
But it seems as season four begins, that Chuck is a little hesitant to actually do the work that's needed to go after his enemies. His dad needs to come in his office and tell him to get off his ass and go get a gun permit for or a client.
David Levien:
Well, Chuck is in a very unfamiliar position to him. He, by being fired as the US attorney, has lost his power base. And he's opened a law office as a private sector attorney. And we meet him at loose ends and not really knowing how to regather. And yes, his father gives him one of those strange and perverse backhanded pep talks that are so motivating to Chuck. And he starts to gather the strands of influence that are available in the city in a way that only he knows how, so that he can rebuild his position.
Josh King:
Your casting, David, is just superb, not only from the original league cast members that you put in place at season one, but those that have joined in subsequent seasons. Let's hear a little from the attorney general, sometime in season three.
Speaker 6:
We use teasers, those are stallions you put into the stall with the sole purpose of making sure the mare's in heat, prime for breeding. Now teaser, he didn't get to do any (beep). He's just there to get the mare ready. Take her kicks, try to mount, take some more kicks. And by God that teaser, he's got a rager going on the whole dang time. But that doesn't matter, soon that dam is ready, we yank that teaser out of there, lead the real stud in and he gets to do all the (beep). Teaser has to make do with some mangy hay and a bucket of oats.
Josh King:
Chuck Rhoades as the ultimate teaser. Casting, writing, David Levien becoming an expert in animal little husbandry. How do you do it?
David Levien:
That little bit there is something actually that we've carried around for probably 25 years. At some point, right after I graduated college, I went down to Argentina and spent some time down there working with horses. And one of the guys that bred the horses there, told me about the way they do it and the way that they... I guess it's the old way, now it's all done with modern medicine. But in the old ways, they would try to protect the valuable horses by doing that. And it was so fascinating, I told Brian about it. We thought that it was a hilarious metaphor and really apt if we could find the right place for it. And finally, when we had this swaggering, Texas attorney general, we knew that Clancy Brown would be the perfect guy to deliver that stuff.
Josh King:
I heard on a podcast when Brian was talking to Damian Lewis, and he was talking about when Steven Spielberg and Tom Hanks cast him as Dick Winters in Band of Brothers, that Damian was up against a person who looked exactly like his imagination of Dick Winters. Clancy Brown seems to me like the one person who could play Jock Jeffcoat. Did you look at a lot of different actors for that role?
David Levien:
No, we looked at no actors for that role. We had met Clancy about 20 years ago. We were in Toronto making a movie. He was making another movie. We were already huge fans of his then. We ran into him at the hotel bar and we said, "Hey man, we want to work with you." We got along great. We made him an offer on the movie we were on, but because of schedule, he couldn't do it, it was too big a part. And we said, "One day we're going to get you, one day we're going to get you." And we never found the right opportunity until this one. As soon as we wrote the character we realized, if Clancy's available and he'll come do this, he's the perfect guy for it.
Josh King:
Your show, episode one, Chucky Rhoades's Greatest Game. The athlete we talked about, seems a little out of shape. I wrote on Twitter that the shots from Colin Bucksey's direction of Paul Giamatti accentuated maybe some advancing girth through somewhat of a wider aperture. One of the recapers observed that both Chuck and Axe are fighting a younger generation, more than each other. You and I are 50 somethings, is this a statement about our place in the financial ecosystem?
David Levien:
Well, that's a great read. Obviously, Bryan Connerty and Taylor Mason are a younger generation, and there have been some comments to that effect. But everybody loves the romance of the aging pugilist trying to hang on. It would be a rough world to be out in these digital financial waters for real right now, so I'm glad I don't have to do that. And these guys didn't get to where they are by being quitters and there's no quit in them yet, so they're going to fight with everything they have, all the whiles they have at their fingertips.
Josh King:
New York has always been a character in your show, but I was struck episode one, how many of the classic eateries you gave cameos to in a single episode. Barney Greengrass, the Four Seasons, Sparks. I lost count. Are you burning through these locations too fast? How many seasons worth of A-list joints do you have in reserve? I want to hear just a clip from Anthony Bourdain's, A Cook's Tour.
Speaker 7:
Whenever I want to treat myself to the best breakfast in New York, in fact, the best breakfast in the universe, I'm go to a place in my neighborhood. Well, famed for just that, the legendary Barney Greengrass: The Sturgeon King.
Speaker 8:
This place has been a New York institution since 1908, when over a million Jews from Eastern Europe, made New York City their home. Like everything else in the city, the food and culture that once belonged to them now belongs to everyone.
Josh King:
The late, great Anthony Bourdain doing some location scouting for you.
David Levien:
Yeah. Wow. It's moving hearing his voice like that. What a loss. What a great presence he was. But to get back to your question, as far as running out of these power places, the great thing about New York and an ongoing series is, as each year goes by, there's going to be new ones opening. There's still so many in this town, the historic ones, the trendy ones, the ones that are yet to be discovered, that we don't feel any concern that we're going to run out soon.
David Levien:
And this particular thing in episode one, this run that Chuck goes on, is something that we'd been talking about for a couple of years. Brian loved the idea of trying to hit all the places in one episode. The idea that there were multiple power breakfast places, and one in fact, that by right should have been in there, is The Regency, which is really the power breakfast room. But we'd used it the previous season, I think in episode 3x11 or 3x12, so we didn't want to repeat and go there. But EAT and Barney Greengrass and Michaels are right there, as far as where the big power players go and chop up the city. So we recognize that Chuck had to make stops at all those places, then the lunch joints, and then just get into the old power dinner joints as his story resolves.
Josh King:
Either you or Brian or someone else commented that episodes one and two were sort of a warmup. They're a little light. I'm having a lot of fun watching them. Episode three, we start getting serious.
David Levien:
Yeah, I think Brian said, we're just getting ramped up or something like that. And it's true, you've got to reset the table in these beginning episodes and there's no reason for it to be a slog because of where we're at. It needs to move fast, we have a lot of ground to cover. But as the new plots start to get established, it starts to deepen and you start to see these stakes and these characters dig in and really start going after each other. And it starts to get heavier are more intense as we go.
Josh King:
Toby Leonard Moore, a guy I just met for the first time an hour ago, not the guy as I see him on screen who got pegged for wrecking that sandwich, as you tweeted. But he's learned from Chuck in more ways than one, being the USA for the Southern District takes a lot out of you. It's pretty frustrating.
David Levien:
Well, it's a tough job. There have been some times when Chuck was in the job and Connerty criticized certain decisions he made. And there were a couple of references that Chuck made about how there are a lot of equities to balance when you're in that job and how it's not so easy, and Connerty's starting to find that out now.
Josh King:
It's a dangerous world out there. But I wonder, as I watched the first couple episodes, does Bobby really need the full secret service style detail following him even in his office and on his home balcony?
David Levien:
Well, Bobby Axelrod, he's not risk averse at all, but he's a prudent man. And when he stood across the table from a Russian oligarch who is willing to offer to murder somebody for him, he realizes that being at odds with that guy puts him in line for that kind of thing. And he's not somebody who's going to lose what he has because he's being careless or too cheap to hire bodyguards.
Josh King:
You end episode one at Sparks, and I'm worried that as I watch it, that NYPD Commissioner Richie Sansome's head is going to be crushed by a passing sanitation truck outside Sparks on 46th Street. But in fact, your crane shot is ripped from the tabloids of the past. Let's listen to eyewitness news from December 16th, 1985.
Speaker 9:
He was known as a godfather. He was murdered on the streets of Midtown Manhattan tonight. His name Paul Castellano, the alleged mafia strongman, killed by three men wearing trench coats and firing automatic weapons at close range. Castellano's bodyguard driver was also killed in the attack. Witnesses say the killer simply walked away and got into a car and then disappeared. Castellano was being tried on federal racketeering charges.
Josh King:
David, tell us about your process that melds old fact with new fiction.
David Levien:
Well, our process was, being in New York as kids, I guess at the end of high school then, when that happened. Being New Yorkers, aware of this history of New York. That was an event in modern history, that was incredible. That seemed to tie to so many episodes from this sort of nefarious past that the city's had. And just when you think that things have gotten too civilized and those days are gone forever, you have another Gambino boss getting gunned down in the city, in his own driveway. Now, it turns out that it wasn't an orchestrated mob hit, but the result is the same. Some things never change. It was an image that we carried around for a while and it was hard to understand how we would deploy it, but those pieces finally fell in together and it made for a really memorable end shot. We did look at those tabloid shots quite a bit in conjuring up the end of that episode.
Josh King:
So I mentioned the screen on Bobby's desk in my introduction at Axe Cap, I know enough about show running to know that David Levine probably obsesses over every frame in the editing room, staying on process. Take me through the process that ends up with that hurricane map over Damian Lewis's shoulder in episode two, Arousal Template. That's a real world of a hedge fund manager right there. It's what we do at Intercontinental Exchange.
David Levien:
Yeah. We try to get these details right. We definitely try to immerse ourselves in the details so that if we decide not to adhere to the details, we're doing it advisedly. And sometimes we move away from fact because we're making a drama, it's fictional and we have to default to what's most dramatic most of the time. But in situations like that, we want to create the verisimilitude of the hedge fund. We always make sure that what's up on the screens is the right thing. If Axe is talking about the fact that they're down for the day, he's not going to have his screens up with all the P&Ls green. That's just something we want to pay attention to, so that the educated viewers don't call BS.
Josh King:
From the screens to the sandwiches, another thing about episode two, Chuck throws away a perfectly good half of a deli sandwich right out of the wax paper. What power play is he trying to make to Michael Panay, who's played by Hari Dhillon? Or is this some wacky halvsies diet that Wendy's put him on?
David Levien:
Well yeah, I think he's a guy who's showing that he's not going to offer the guy half, and he's in fact so strong of will that he's not only not going to offer it, he's going to throw right in the garbage and let the guy wrestle with what he's being told. And then he's going to make the most of the half he has.
Josh King:
These guys, they can't let go of their Achilles' heels. Grigor tells Bobby to leave Taylor alone. He can't. And there goes David Costabile telling him he's an American oligarch. And Chuck, when Wendy signals its time for some fun, he can't be without a secret little box like a child's blankie. A little bit of Taylor's tai chi would do them both a lot of good or maybe some TM.
David Levien:
Well, they do the TM, they both do TM. And we've seen them do it successfully and mostly unsuccessfully over the course of the series. But these are driven guys. You don't rise to a position of that kind of power as Chuck has. And you don't accrue billions upon billions of dollars without some kind of nuclear core driving you. And much of the time these guys can control it, but there are other times when it controls them and they have these pathologies that make them who they are. And it's part of their self story, they tell themselves that's what got them where they are, so they have this incredible belief. And it's harder for them to see where it leaves an opening for an opponent.
Josh King:
Does Taylor's embrace of tai chi stem from your own embrace of mixed martial arts?
David Levien:
Well, I've never done tai chi, that's not my thing. I do love studying various martial arts. I think that goes back to what you're saying about the younger generation. Is the younger generation one that can be that sharp mathematically, that good, that balanced, when it comes to risk, but also find a way to have a spiritual side and be a fully balanced person? That's what I think the younger generations aspire to, but the astute viewer will see that that gets interrupted by the old oligarch coming and knocking.
Josh King:
The younger generation doesn't like, as I would, the black and white cookie from the deli. And as writers, life is like a constant black and white cookie when you're putting words in Chuck's mouth. I had to look up prestidigitation last night. I did not know the definition of that word. As Ira tells his client as the potential attorney general candidate is up on the podium, New Yorkers want an attorney general who sounds like them, not William Safire. Donald Trump knows that too, doesn't he?
David Levien:
Well, I guess he does. I don't know if he speaks the way he does because he feels like it's some answer or if that's the only way he can speak, but obviously, it's been effective for him.
Josh King:
You guys had to say, we're going to put prestidigitation in the script.
David Levien:
Well, yeah. Chuck Rhoades is a guy with a big vocabulary and he's happy to use it with flourish. Bobby Axelrod is a guy who has a big vocabulary, he knows all the words. He may choose not to use them, but you're not going to lose him. Same with Taylor. They may not even speak that much, but you know they can if they want to. That particular word was just a fun one for us. We've been longtime fans of magic and if you watch one of Ricky Jay's stage shows, the late Ricky Jay, who just passed. Another huge loss to the world. You can practically hear him saying it with that smile in his voice as he's doing it.
Josh King:
I thought Ricky Jay's websites would come up when I put that word in and when I started reading the definition.
David Levien:
He's certainly somebody who's used it on stage.
Josh King:
We could stay on Bobby and Chuck all morning, but that would miss so much of the delight of the show in the supporting characters. Last year, you brought us Ari Spyros, played by Stephen Kunken, who's back for more abuse in season four. Sort of like a Barney Fife to Andy Griffith.
David Levien:
Well, Spyros has been in the show since the beginning. He was in the pilot and he's the one who comes in with the case on Axe that Chuck ends up taking up. He was at the SEC as head of enforcement, and then he sort of bounced around in various positions until he got brought on board, Axe Capital. And that was just something for us when he was playing those guest roles, we loved what he did so much that we were just trying to figure out how to make him more a part of the main. And if you watch these worlds, you see it all the time.
Josh King:
And a character that carries a lot of influential weight because of his office, but he's, in many ways, a weak character. But from weak to strong, this year you bestow upon us Bonnie Barella played by Sarah Stiles, straight out of Staten Island it seems. She reminds me of Melanie Griffith as Tess McGill in Mike Nichols' Working Girl. Let's hear a listen.
Speaker 10:
Ms. McGill?
Speaker 11:
Yes?
Speaker 10:
That's your desk in there.
Speaker 11:
I don't think so.
Speaker 10:
Oh, yes. I sit out here.
Speaker 11:
Sorry, I thought the secretary would sit out here.
Speaker 10:
That's right. I'm the secretary. If it's okay, I prefer assistant. You've got a 10 o'clock meeting with Slater from development here. 11 o'clock with Donahue from logistics, his office on 23. And lunch with Mr. Trask, his office, downtown, one o'clock.
Josh King:
You've got to have a hoot, David, weaving these strong figures with tethers into your past, into your storylines.
David Levien:
That's such a great movie moment. Love that end of Working Girl. Yeah, Sarah Stiles. I don't know where she's from actually, she's probably told me, but I've forgotten. I don't think she's putting on anything there. The minute we saw her read, we knew that she just popped as this character. We knew that it was time for another strong presence at Axe Capital, another strong female presence besides Wendy, somebody who was actually in the main on the trading floor. And from her first episode, she's just torn this character apart. We love it. And we'll write for her as much as we can.
Josh King:
When we come back, more with David Levien, Billions showrunner. His friendship and partnership with Brian Koppelman. And where Billions goes from here. That's right after this.
Speaker 5:
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Josh King:
We're back now with David Levien, creator, executive producer, and showrunner, along with Brian Koppelman, of Showtimes Billions, now starting its fourth season. Before the break, David and I were talking about doing a Bill Simmons' style of recapables of season four so far, but now I want to turn back the clock. And either you or Brian told Jim Rohn recently that you finished the writing for season four finale. And I get a sense from listening to Brian's podcast and tweets, what he does during hiatus, but chart the next months for you from here. Is it back to Paris and Argentina for another walkabout?
David Levien:
No, now I have three kids, so I don't get to go very far because they're still in school. I take them to those places, but they have to go to school. So what we have for the next month is finishing post-production on the episodes. We have to finish cutting the last couple, then making sure the music is right, and then we go in and just do the final color grading. So that's going to take us the next five, six weeks. Then we're going to have a little time off.
David Levien:
We have some stuff we're going to work on together, we'll probably work on some stuff separately. I'd like to believe I'm going to chill out and relax, I don't know if I know how anymore. At the end of last season, because of the air date of this season, they asked us to roll into it. And we had three days off basically. We had from a Wednesday until a Sunday and then we went back in and that was a little brutal, so it's been two years nonstop. So I'm going to have to relearn how to do less.
Josh King:
That journey to France and Argentina that you talked to Brian about on his episode. And as you reflected on it, I think you were a little self-critical that it was maybe, in some ways, a little immature. You said you were sending Brian pictures of you writing at cafes. And yet, we were just talking that a pivotal scene in this season is drawn from your understanding of animal husbandry and bringing up horses in Argentina. If you take a serious think back on that time that you, I think had left LA and were trying to go out and discover yourself as a writer, does it have more value to you than you joked around with Brian about?
David Levien:
Yeah, of course. It's an easy thing to make fun of, and when you're sitting with your best friend, it's always fun to poke fun at yourself and the way you were, how earnest you were when you're young. But the thing is, if you want to be an artist, have a career in the arts, the line between delusion and being successful is very, very thin. It's invisible, really. And you're the only one who knew knows if there is that line there. So there's a certain amount of self-hypnosis in the beginning that has to take place, where you have to convince yourself that, not only can you be this writer, but you are it. And there's no outside evidence in the beginning, so you just have to believe it.
David Levien:
So that's really what was going on there, I had put myself in a position where I had to write material or else I was going to be nothing and have come up with nothing during this time. And I had to learn how to do my craft. So on a serious level, that's what that was. It was trying to live the life, the outer trappings as I had come to perceive them, because I didn't know any writers really. I didn't know any artists personally, to ask about it. So it was what I'd read in books and seen in movies and stuff like that. And you're doing some kind of an impersonation until it becomes real. And that's what was really going on.
Josh King:
Last year, you came out with another novel, you're sixth I think, and your fourth Frank Behr novel. I loved writing my book, but the buzz around it lasts for like two weeks and then it's done. On a 13 week season, it's like you've got a new book out every Sunday night at nine. What drives you to keep writing books when the rewards and claim seem so much greater for TV?
David Levien:
Wow, that's a great question. You have an understanding in this. Yeah, 12 episode seasons. And we have what's quickly becoming the throwback style of release, which is instead of them all becoming available at once, on a streaming service, we still air week by week. Now, obviously, some people save them up and binge them. But in effect, the season for the weekly viewers, the people doing that old fashioned style viewing, it becomes a little bit of a conversation that lasts for three months, and that's incredibly rewarding. We were a little bit nervous at first, we were like, in a world where you can watch them all in a row, what's going to happen? Are people going to be interested? But the way it's worked out, we're so glad because it does keep it alive and it makes it a real thing.
David Levien:
And you're still making the last episodes as it's airing and it's a real thrill. It makes it all so real. Writing the books, whether they're received with a lot of enthusiasm or just sort of a quiet pebble fallen in the well, they're incredibly rewarding. They're a reward unto themself, just finishing them. I love writing those books, I love that character. There probably will be another, but for the first couple years of this show, I gave myself the gift and I think it gave myself the readers of those Frank Behr books, the gift of not trying to do both. I said to myself, don't put that on the to-do list because it's going to probably overstress both things. So I threw all my energies into the show and I'm really glad I did. With an extended break, I'll probably dip back into writing some fiction.
Josh King:
Brian and you pound the best friend story hard, but you should because it's so meaningful to both men and women. I've got a best friend from growing up outside of Boston, Adam Rossman. We had periods when we were able to work together, but never on our own thing. You've always been friends, but you weren't always partners. How did you get together as a team?
David Levien:
We had been friends since we were in our mid-teens, great friends. Went to do different schools, lived in different places at various times. Seemed like our careers were going in different directions, to a degree. Brian was succeeding in the music business, that seemed like it was going to be his life. I had started working in the movie business, I learned the ropes a little bit. Realized that I couldn't really write my own stuff and become a creator while I held those jobs, so I broke off the career path and started working on writing my own stuff. Right around this time, Brian recognized what was really in him was not being somebody who helped recording artists make their records, was he wanted to create his own material, and he wanted to be a writer.
David Levien:
And it was around the time he had his first kid, he wanted to be someone who could honestly tell his kid that, you should go live your dreams and do what it is that you want to do in life. And he came to me when I was bartending and he said that he was dying to try this, he wanted to write a screenplay. And I said, "I had just finished a book, why don't we write one together?" And then we started to try to figure out what it was going to be, and one night soon after he got taken to this poker club and that became the inspiration for Rounders.
David Levien:
So it wasn't a direct path towards doing this thing together because we didn't both know that it was our calling. And we certainly didn't know that it was something that we should do together. It seemed like maybe it was a solitary thing until we figured out that it could be a joint thing. And then it worked so well right off the bat, that there was no question that we were going to continue. There was such a power in joining the shared palette of references that we had, and the sensibility, it immediately became clear that there was an energy there in the writing of Rounders that we stuck with and wrote it.
Josh King:
And yet, success is never permanent. At the top of the show, I mentioned that there are periods in your careers when the doors were closing or completely shut. When it got bad, how bad did it get for you?
David Levien:
Well, Brian really loves... He'll come in here and he'll talk to you about this because he loves talking about the lowest of the lows, because I think as a storyteller, that's the natural turn towards then talking about the opposite. But it got pretty grim. The thing about movies and shows and really anything you're working on, but especially when you're working with big groups of people, they don't always turn out well. You can't get everybody paddling in the same direction all the time. People have different ideas. People have different abilities to influence processes. And sometimes those disparate elements come together in an amazing, additive way. Like with Rounders, John Dahl directed that. He had a different set of ideas that he had coming to that script than we had. We all came together and all of our artistic sensibilities blended into something that was really cool and something that we would've never done separately.
David Levien:
But sometimes the thing just comes together as a Frankenstein's monster, and it just gets up off the table, and it's ugly and monstrous and terrible. And that's where we'd found ourselves. And it was a moment where we had this movie come out, it was a bomb. And there was a thing that was sort of like the director in Hollywood gets the credit and he gets the blame when a movie's a hit or a bomb. And our agent called us and said, "This movie's a bomb. It's going to be really bad for you." And we said, "Yeah, but the director should take the hit on that because we just wrote it." And he goes, "No, you guys are special. In this case, you're going to get the blame." And we were like, "That's unbelievable." But that's where we found ourselves. Fortunately though, we had learned a long time ago and had the ability, as writers and creators you can deal yourself your next hand. So we wrote our next ticket and that turned out to be Billions.
Josh King:
Will your season be over by May 31st? That's debut date of the Deadwood movie.
David Levien:
I think that we go into June, just by doing the math.
Josh King:
So I just got to tell you, we're going to have a little conflict on May 31st. That's the debut date of the Deadwood movie. Date night for the King household, let's hear a little preview.
Speaker 12:
This town is a sanctuary. Every man worth the name knows the value of being unreachable.
Speaker 13:
It'd be a pity not to recognize what's at stake. What's the move now?
Speaker 12:
You ever think, Bullock, of not going straight at a thing?
Josh King:
David, I know you and Brian hold the works of David Milch up in high regard. He only got three seasons to tell that story, and now you're on your fourth. Aaron Sorkin's idea for West Wing got nine. David Chase got six with The Sopranos. How many seasons will it take for Chuck and Axe to ultimately resolve their conflict?
David Levien:
That's a great question. If I told you a number, I'd be lying because we don't know the exact answer. We have versions of answers that have to do with, as long as this stuff and these characters and these subject matters are alive to us creatively, we'll keep doing this because this is the most fun we've ever had. This cast and crew that we work with are so amazing. They allow us the freedom to write and go absolutely anywhere with the story. And it can all come to fruition in a great way. So we will keep going. They haven't announced season five yet.
David Levien:
They go one at a time at Showtime and they usually announce it during the season while you're airing. So in a world where we don't make those decisions and anything can happen, they could decide not to do it. All signs are likely that we're going to make season five. There's been a lot of discussion about preparing for that. Beyond that, it'd be irresponsible for me to talk about, though, we have various versions of a six, seven, eight, and beyond table for the way this thing could run. Without specifics, just stopping points, various energies, reversals, things like that. So this is a story that for us, can run for a long time.
Josh King:
Later on in this season that is currently running, I think, I hope, the NYSE makes a cameo sort of like The Feast of San Gennaro does in episode two. Brian tweeted out your admiration for April Taylor, who is our hand holder as well. It's one thing to put words on a page like you and Brian do, but you also really run a small business. It's another thing to move trucks, cameras, craft services all over the city. Talk about prestidigitation. As we wrap up, give a nod to the team that turns this magical city of ours into a film set, six months out of the year.
David Levien:
Yeah, well you mentioned April Taylor and she's a producer on the show, she's the line producer. She's sort of the beginning point of where this stuff is on a page and in our heads and becomes a reality. She's incredibly tireless, marshaling our resources and making it happen. She's got an amazing team working with her, Jake Brown. We have a guy named Mike Harrop. Then we have incredible ADs, the assistant directors who alternate, running physical production for the visiting directors. We have amazing heads of department, all the way through the PAs on this thing, are so dedicated. And we have incredible guest directors come in and visit, and some of them are more than visitors, like you mentioned, Colin Bucksey. He's done three episodes last season, three this season, he did one the season before, that's where we got to meet him. We have people repeat. Unfortunately, or fortunately, some of these people are so talented that they book a lot of other shows and movies and we can't get them all back when we want. But without these collaborators, we couldn't put this thing on its feet.
Josh King:
On that note, David, thank you so much for sharing your story with us here, Inside the ICE House. That's our conversation for this week. Our guest was David Levien, creator, executive producer, and show runner, along with Brian Koppelman of Billions on Showtime. Watch it every Sunday night at 9:00 PM or stream it on-demand, anytime you please. If you like what you heard, please rate us on iTunes so other folks know where to find us. And if you've got a comment or question you'd like one of our experts to tackle on a future show, email us at [email protected] or tweet at us @ICEHousePodcast. Our show is produced by Pete Asch and Theresa DeLuca, along with the NYC broadcast team led by Ian Wolff with Kent Abel at the controls. I'm Josh king, your host, signing off from the library of the New York Stock Exchange. Thanks for listening. Talk to you next week.
Speaker 1:
The information contained in this podcast was obtained in part from publicly available sources and not independently verified. Neither ICE nor it's affiliates make any representations or warranties, express or implied as to the accuracy or completeness of the information and do not sponsor, approve, or endorse any of the content herein. All of which is presented solely for informational and educational purposes. Nothing here in constitution offered to sell, a solicitation of an offer to buy any security or a recommendation of any security or trading practice. Some portions of the proceeding conversation may have been edited for the purpose of length or clarity.
