Speaker 1:
From the library of the New York Stock Exchange at the corner of Wall and Broad Streets in New York city, you're Inside the ICE House, our podcast from Intercontinental Exchange on markets, leadership and vision and global business. The dream drivers that have made the NYSE an indispensable institution of global growth for over 225 years. Each week, we feature stories of those who hatch plans, create jobs and harness the engine of capitalism, right here, right now at the NYSE and at ICE's 12 exchanges and six clearing houses around the world. And now welcome, Inside the ICE House, here's your host, Josh King of Intercontinental Exchange.
Josh King:
This episode of SLICE Uncut brings our listeners a discussion between the New York Stock Exchange's Executive Vice Chairman, Betty Liu, and Hamdi Ulukaya, chairman and CEO of Chobani. Hamdi founded Chobani in 2005 and has grown the company from a single factory in Upstate New York to a global powerhouse brand using what he terms, the Anti-CEO Playbook. He launched the Tent Foundation in 2015 to bring the private sector and hundreds of companies together to help address the ongoing refugee crisis. He also started the Chobani Incubator in 2016 to support entrepreneurs looking to disrupt the food industry.
Josh King:
Betty and Hamdi discuss how his mission to bring a better tasting yogurt to the United States has grown and evolved into wanting to change how businesses operate and who they serve. SLICE Uncut delivers listeners the full conversation between Betty Liu and her guests on SLICE, her interview style program that unearths what entrepreneurs and disruptive brands are doing to change our way of life and our future. A condensed version of this interview first appeared on Cheddar Business and can be streamed from theice.com/insights. The full Uncut SLICE conversation between the NYSE's Betty Liu and Hamdi Ulukaya right after this.
Speaker 3:
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Betty Liu:
Hamdi, great to see you. I'm so excited to-
Hamdi Ulukaya:
You too. Thank you. Thanks for having me.
Betty Liu:
I'm so excited to have you here on SLICE. All right. So I want to talk about a lot of topics. Everything from your playbook as a leader, to your work on the Tent Partnership for Refugees.
Hamdi Ulukaya:
Sure.
Betty Liu:
But let's start first with Chobani.
Hamdi Ulukaya:
Yes, of course.
Betty Liu:
What a journey you've had. I think it was back in 2005, you bought this rickety factory in Upstate New York. Decided to make everybody eat better yogurt in the United States. And then from there, you've now grown. You've what, like 2,000 employees, 30% of them are immigrants and refugees. You've expanded into Idaho, biggest factory there in the state. Tell me about that journey from then to now. What have you learned?
Hamdi Ulukaya:
What I have learned. I just did a recent Ted Talk and I said, "46 years of learning, I tried to put it into 16, 17 minutes. Most of it is, I started with a drive that coming from Johnstown New York, where my cheese shop was, to go find this old factory where I found an ad that said, "Plant for sale." You summarized the whole journey and we are here in this amazing financial institution. But growing up in Turkey, in the mountains, in the Kurdish mountains as a nomad, I've never, ever thought I would be in the field of business. It looked so distant from me. I never liked it. I thought it was not aligned with my values, but not aligned with my thinking, not aligned with my ability.
Hamdi Ulukaya:
I never saw myself doing that. But seeing that factory really reminded me my home. Again, this factory is closing. All the surroundings are where I grow up, like the farms, the farmers, and the hills and water and all that kind of stuff. But yet the suffering is the same. The people who are closing the factory is left alone again, left behind again after 85 years. So when I left that factory, I don't know what it got into me. I really don't know. I had this strong desire mixed with anger and opportunity at the same time, that I said, "I could do something with this." Angry because, why did you close this place?
Betty Liu:
Interesting.
Hamdi Ulukaya:
Why? Did you see these people are closing this factory as if they're opening with silence, with grace, with most professional waves possible? This is the last day and look at how they're working, how disciplined they are, how human they are. I felt like my own family was left behind the moment, even though I was the strangest person. The opportunity, I said, "Well, with these people, I can build so much." And second part is this country doesn't have a good yogurt.
Betty Liu:
And you know yogurt.
Hamdi Ulukaya:
I know yogurt. I grew up with yogurt. From that moment, and I said... The first thing we did is we paint the walls outside. And I said, "If I told these people what was going to happen... Then we launched Chobani two years from now with four of them, and what is going to be like five years after and then five years after? If I had told them what was going to happen, they would probably say I was-
Betty Liu:
You're crazy.
Hamdi Ulukaya:
Yeah, I was crazy or something. But that's exactly what happened. And within that, I learned a lot. I didn't learn going to schools, I didn't learn by reading books. I didn't learn by having a network of people because up there, there was nothing. It was me, factory workers, farmers, community people, my memories being back home. People came and joined and we figured out together. And I realized, I love this field. I love business. I love what it does. I love what it does to people. I love what it does to community. I love what it does to me. I love what it does to broader humanity. I love what it does. So I realized that it's something with the playbook. It's something with the approach of the business that was not right. Not that the field was not right.
Betty Liu:
Because you saw that it was making an impact.
Hamdi Ulukaya:
100%, and generating a lot of values, building factories. We started that company with a SBA loan, with four factory workers, until it was a billion sales. We never brought any outsider money. We did it by internally and we built almost $700 million infrastructure in New York and Idaho, but it was miracle. But it's possible because you put all of your God given abilities into work. Creativity, leadership, competition, finding solutions, building brotherhood and sisterhood, building connection with people, having human connections. These are all possible in the field of business. And if you summarize to only money, then you disconnect from treasure.
Betty Liu:
Well, that leads to your Ted Talk that you just referenced. I know you talked about this Anti-CEO Playbook that you have, where you focus on a return on kindness. Did something happen where you felt like, okay, once you focused on a return on kindness, that the wealth and the investments and the profits, that all comes now naturally after?
Hamdi Ulukaya:
100%, and it comes in a very beautiful way and it comes in a really fast way. Simply because if you built those human connections, and if you center that this is going to be good for humanity, good for the community, good for the people, and I'm going to make services and products that is going to serve greater community, you become faster, you become more profitable, you become more innovative and you break all the records, but it really has to be center of your reasoning of existence. It cannot be a check the box. Like, look, I'm doing something nice here. You come to work every single day and saying, "I'm going to do something really good today."
Betty Liu:
Do you feel like that's changing in corporate America?
Hamdi Ulukaya:
I do.
Betty Liu:
Yeah.
Hamdi Ulukaya:
I think I see it not changing dramatically, but there is dramatic search.
Betty Liu:
Okay.
Hamdi Ulukaya:
There's dramatic search. There's dramatic question. I was just in meeting in Florida today and conversation going on is among the CEOs and wealthy people are saying, "Okay, in the field of income inequality going in a really wrong direction, in the field of businesses and brands and CEOs disconnected from broader community, where are we going? Are we the one to blame for, or are we the one who can solve this problem?" And I think second option is the best option. And you know, Betty, a lot of conversations are happening in this institutions in a lot of places around the world, of what is business and CEO's role in society and community going forward? And saying that you only exist to make profit for the shareholder is really, really not good for the business.
Betty Liu:
It doesn't cut it anymore. Yeah.
Hamdi Ulukaya:
No, and it's not good for the business either. Let's get the right way.
Betty Liu:
Well, you've also mentioned before though, and this was, now we're talking a decade before when maybe it was more about a return on shareholder value that you talked about Chobani being a calling for you. Is it almost a religious thing for you or a mystical thing?
Hamdi Ulukaya:
Not really. It's a yogurt company. We practice all the business functions. I love competition. I love creating new stuff. I'm really excited about next and the second part of this year, the things that we're going to launch. Just coming here, I was on the phone with my R&D team in Idaho. We're going there next Tuesday, and we have all the meetings. I love this field. It's not like-
Betty Liu:
You love the business.
Hamdi Ulukaya:
I love the business. Don't mix it with the NGO, don't mix it with social enterprise or whatever it is. It's a field of business.
Betty Liu:
It's a business, yeah.
Hamdi Ulukaya:
It's business and it's perfect, but it's not just to make money.
Betty Liu:
Right.
Hamdi Ulukaya:
That's the only difference. It's just not to make money. I want to have joy. Everybody wants to have joy. How much more money can you make to give you more joy? It's not. But if you can, make more money, your shareholders can use it for the right reason, your company can use it for right reason, building infrastructure, your employees can have use for it. There is a great tool called money. Amazing tool is called money, but it's just a tool.
Betty Liu:
I want to talk in a little bit about how you're encouraging businesses with their money to incite social change around the refugee crisis. But you personally, I know it was a few weeks ago, I think it was, where you had donated to this Rhode Island school to pay for hot lunches for these kids. I watched your LinkedIn video and you just said it broke your heart to see this. So what was behind that?
Hamdi Ulukaya:
It was morning and I came to office. I just kissed goodbye to my son from home and I'm still in that emotional place. Coming to the office and my colleague says, "Did you hear that?" And I immediately pictured a kid, goes to school and is at lunchtime and he or she's not given food because somebody didn't pay for the lunch money. And then the next person has the hot food and she doesn't or he doesn't. It's called shaming.
Hamdi Ulukaya:
The food first reaction I had is, it cannot be. This cannot be happening in this country. This cannot be happening anywhere, but cannot happen in Rhode Island. It was true, it was happening and it broke my heart. It was symbolic, but I thought it's extremely important to bring this to attention to everyone that at least we are politically divided. We are so many different opinions and everything else, but when it comes to children and when it comes to them having an access to good food and lunchtime, where they're in the school, they cannot be shamed and they can be just children and play and learn and be friends and go home without emotionally hurt. It's something that we can all unite.
Betty Liu:
Seems so basic.
Hamdi Ulukaya:
So basic.
Betty Liu:
Right, so basic.
Hamdi Ulukaya:
Yeah.
Betty Liu:
It was interesting that a few weeks later, and I don't know if it's connected, but then you had Robert Smith at Morehouse College who then said, "I'm going to donate, I've made my billions and I'm going to donate to pay off everybody's student loans." So I wonder if you started a trend here, Hamdi?
Hamdi Ulukaya:
I don't know. I think there are a lot of good people out there. I really do. I think in the field of business, doing good in the community, doing good in humanity, doing good to our people, if it's an everyday business and regular business, majority of the people in the business that I know will jump in dramatically. But what's most important is in the boardrooms, an investor community needs to support, needs to encourage the CEOs and the owners to do the right thing.
Betty Liu:
And you're encouraging CEOs to pay more attention to the refugee crisis.
Hamdi Ulukaya:
Yes.
Betty Liu:
So you've worked with many brands, some of them here are listed at the New York Stock Exchange like Uber, for instance, and others to work with you on private businesses like Chobani, how are they going to address this crisis? That led to the Tent Partnership for Refugees. So describe to me that journey, that story.
Hamdi Ulukaya:
My journey hiring refugees that settled in US has started early days of Chobani. That I heard that there are people who settle in Utica, they can't find jobs. And we were growing, we were hiring, and I lived in Utica. I went out there and says, "What's the problem." And realized these people have right to work, but they just can't because either they don't know the language yet, they don't have transportation or they haven't had any training of the work. So this could be solved very easily and simple things, providing cars, buses, or getting translators or training them in job, giving a little bit of an extra effort. So we end up having 30% of our employees, like hundreds of them, four, five, 600 of them were refugees.
Hamdi Ulukaya:
When the refugees crisis came into in the highest place and this became a political topic, I invited people to say, look, there's 19 different nationalities, 16 different languages, we are shoulder to shoulder, brothers and sisters, we are working in making yogurt and making life for our families. What's the problem here? It's a humanitarian issue. It's not a political issue. And then the Yazidi things happened, which is very dear to my heart, very close to my heart, is where the Yazidi community get attacked by ISIS and all the girls get captured and then thousands of thousands of refugees are generated. I immediately look at it as, what can I do? I went to Geneva, UNHCR, and talked to a couple of other NGOs and realized, there is no business community involved in this most dramatic humanitarian crisis that we are going through.
Betty Liu:
Was that a surprise for you?
Hamdi Ulukaya:
A surprise. And it also, since I was very aware with the issue, I didn't even know half of it.
Betty Liu:
Wow.
Hamdi Ulukaya:
So bigger than what I thought it was going to be. I immediately started thinking, I said, "We got to bring the business community in here." Because in my experience, the minute they get a job, that's the minute they stop being a refugee. That's the minute they start moving on in their life. That's the minute they can start building their life again.
Betty Liu:
Yeah.
Hamdi Ulukaya:
And this idea with few companies joining us in 2016, today we have 136 total companies. We have companies come joining. Today in L'Oreal and Accor, these are two amazing fresh companies publicly joined that help refugees whatever they are.
Betty Liu:
That's amazing. Great brands.
Hamdi Ulukaya:
And we were in Netherlands. Yeah, in Netherlands, we had amazing event that companies, public companies, big companies coming up and saying, "We're going to help them here in Netherlands by hiring, by training, but we are going to help them where they are in Turkey or in Jordan, helping them to start businesses and small businesses and training them." I never thought we would come to this point, but we have so much to do. We have so much work to do. Because when we get together and collectively work towards solving one of the biggest humanitarian problem that we face, things get easier, safer, move faster, innovation comes.
Hamdi Ulukaya:
I am hoping that not only we join and announce that we are going to help, that in the next years, we start building these partnerships everywhere around the globe, not only on the part of refugees, but everything else. But this particular issue, I feel like if we don't get involved... Governments are having political debates in issues, NGOs are running out of funds and monies to be able to serve on this so much suffering millions of people, and 95% of them are in the region. They're in Jordan and Turkey and Lebanon, in Ethiopia, in Bangladesh, in Malaysia, this kind of suffering, we cannot move on as a humanity. And it will be-
Betty Liu:
It'll be all our responsibility.
Hamdi Ulukaya:
It'll be all our responsibility.
Betty Liu:
Yeah. So Hamdi, I'm honored. I have to say in all transparency, I'm honored to be on the Tent Advisory Council. And I'm curious a little bit, it hasn't been in existence for that long, as you mentioned, 2016. You've done so much already. What's been the one thing that you've learned that's been surprising to you?
Hamdi Ulukaya:
That how CEOs are eager to engage in a debate. And once they're convinced, how fast they move. I was so surprised. In Netherlands, we had a meeting around the table with the help of some friends, and we had debates and they had concerns. They had really questions. We talked and six months later, we had this public event where a lot of companies came in and says, "You know what, we are going to get into this space and we are going to help." The other part of it is, as people talk, what this refugee means that coming into the communities and how bad could that be? How damaging could that be? And all that kind of stuff. Still, majority of ordinary people love to help, want to help, and they want companies to get engaged.
Hamdi Ulukaya:
We did a business study and branding study with NYU, with a professor there, professor Tulin, that most majority of the young people likes companies and brands to get involved in a topic of refugees. They are loyalty and purchase... Likelihood of purchasing goes dramatically high. So I think the world is going a certain direction. There is some noises that happening here and there. But those things really surprise me despite the fact that this community, unfortunately, branded in a completely wrong way with terrorism, with all the other kind of stuff.
Betty Liu:
Like what you hear in the media.
Hamdi Ulukaya:
All this stuff.
Betty Liu:
Yeah.
Hamdi Ulukaya:
People still paying attention to these are brothers and sisters, these are your girls, these are children. These are the people who never wanted to leave, but they were forced to leave. These are the people are leaving because their life is in danger. Their family's life is in danger. We want to help and we want to help as a humanity. It shouldn't surprise me, but it surprised me a little bit.
Betty Liu:
It's a good surprise though.
Hamdi Ulukaya:
It's a good surprise, yeah.
Betty Liu:
So before we go, Hamdi, I want to just get back to your own personal journey and you, as you mentioned, growing up. I'm curious, we ask a lot of CEOs, because I think a lot of people are shaped by their childhood experiences and by their parents as well. So how do you think your childhood experiences have shaped you? What you learned from your parents, your mother.
Hamdi Ulukaya:
Yeah. I'm a nomad. I'm a true nomad. I grew up in-
Betty Liu:
Is it hard for you to stay in one place then or?
Hamdi Ulukaya:
It has been until I get my voice.
Betty Liu:
Right.
Hamdi Ulukaya:
I moved since I was 11 years old. Related to business, when you are up in the mountains and moving from place to place and making yogurt and cheese, money means nothing. There is no store to buy anything with. So you learn that your respect is your biggest wealth, your dignity, your honor is your biggest wealth. The second part I've learned from my childhood is what social security means. What I meant by that is we didn't have polices and all these things to take us in secure and safety. We were just safe. We never thought about living under those tens that something will happen to us.
Hamdi Ulukaya:
The other one is we knew that if our herds were attacked by wolves and lost everything that we have, the next day, everyone will bring one sheep and I will have another exactly the same. So there was this social confidence that people were trusting each other. Not that we didn't have problems and fights and all that kind of stuff, we always did. I grew up learning from my mother. My mother is probably 90% of me what I am today. Everything I learned, I saw is from her. She was this amazing person in my life. My father was this leader of the community. The fathers back then wasn't as involved in children, but he was a great example for us.
Hamdi Ulukaya:
I would say there is not even a day goes by I don't travel back to my childhood. There's not even a one day. I always remember my childhood not filled with many, many toys or options and luxuries and all that kind of stuff. It's difficult, it's not easy to be a nomad. But I remember being full of joy of things that I experience. I think that whatever I brought from my childhood, where I am and what I end up in Upstate New York, whatever the good comes out of it is combination of those two.
Betty Liu:
And do you try to carry that on with your child now?
Hamdi Ulukaya:
I do.
Betty Liu:
Yeah.
Hamdi Ulukaya:
I don't know how, how can I make him to smell the things that I smell, hear the things that I hear.
Betty Liu:
Right, to have those same experiences?
Hamdi Ulukaya:
Yeah. I try to tell them stories. I try to make them listen to songs. Here's the thing. I don't think my childhood or what I have seen or learned was unique than a child grows in Upstate New York or New York city. It's just those relationship intensity is extremely important. Either like playing baseball with your dad and mom or you play soccer with your dad and share that moment. I think it's those human moments, real human moments outside of the things that money can buy. It's just real moments, is something that carries you. You carry with you a long, long time. And I had many of those.
Betty Liu:
It sounds like very vivid memories-
Hamdi Ulukaya:
Very, very.
Betty Liu:
... from your childhood. Hamdi, great to talk with you. Thank you so much for joining me.
Hamdi Ulukaya:
Thank you. And I want to thank you for inviting us here. I'm so honored to have you in our Tent Advisory Council and looking forward to our meeting tonight.
Betty Liu:
Yes, my pleasure.
Hamdi Ulukaya:
See if we can convince more people to come join us.
Betty Liu:
That's right. The movement, continue the movement.
Hamdi Ulukaya:
Thank you.
Josh King:
Thanks so much for joining us Inside the ICE House for a special Uncut recording from the SLICE episode with Hamdi Ulukaya, which appeared on Cheddar Business and as part of Intercontinental Exchanges Insights that can be found at theice.com/insights. If you like what you heard, please rate us on iTunes so other folks know where to find us. And if you've got a comment or a question you'd like one of our experts to tackle on a future show, email us at [email protected] or tweet at us @ICEHousePodcast. Our show is produced by Pete Asch and Theresa DeLuca, with production from Ken Abel and Stephen Romanchik. I'm Josh King, your host, signing off from the library of the New York Stock Exchange. Thanks for listening, talk to you next week.
Speaker 1:
Information contained in this podcast was obtained in part from publicly available sources and not independently verified. Neither ICE nor its affiliates make any representations or warranties, express or implied, as to the accuracy or completeness of the information and do not sponsor, approve, or endorse any of the content herein, all of which is presented solely for informational and educational purposes. Nothing herein constitutes an offer to sell, a solicitation of an offer to buy any security, or a recommendation of any security or trading practice. Some portions of the preceding conversation may have been edited for the purpose of info clarity.
