Speaker 1:
From the library of the New York stock exchange at the corner of Wall and Broad Streets in New York City, you're Inside the ICE House, our podcast from Intercontinental Exchange on markets, leadership and vision and global business. The dream drivers that have made the NYSC an indispensable institution of global growth for over for 225 years. Each week, we feature stories of those who hatch plans, create jobs, and harness the engine of capitalism right here, right now at the NYSC and at ICE's 12 exchanges and six clearing houses around the world. And now welcome Inside the ICE House.
Peter Asch:
People have an irrational love of round milestone numbers. It's a fact proven out study after study. It's why when Yannis Ondecupa scored 50 points to close out the NBA finals, it sounds more satisfying that if he had scored 51 or 53 points. And on this podcast, we have reached one of those milestones, as we bring you episode number 250. Over the past three and a half years, each recording stands out, not just for the unique conversation we share with the audience, but how the guest ends up sitting across from us in the library of the New York Stock Exchange. The story of this episode begins back in September, 2018. When I asked pre IPO company, if their CEO would be interested in recording a podcast about its connected planning platform and goals as a public company. Tech executives on a mission to change the world who sit down with us mere minutes after listing on the New York Stock Exchange are the ingredients that create many of our best episodes.
Peter Asch:
I thought that this would be especially the case with this company, whose origin story begins with a stone barn in York, England. And despite now being headquartered on the tech highway, running up the west coast, built a culture that never forgot where it all began. In preparing for today's episode, I went back to the notes from that pitch where I'd written "Client requests we defer until the release of the CEO's book." Well, it was certainly worth the wait. Joining us today to discuss his recently released book, Upstanding: How Company Character Catalyzes Loyalty, Agility, and Hypergrowth is Frank Calderoni, CEO and chairman of that company, Anaplan, NYC ticker P L A N.
Peter Asch:
We'll ask him to share the lessons he's learned over his career that helped him lead a company through a successful IPO, his role guiding the company's incredible growth, and how he's been navigating the business and its nearly 2,000 employees through a global pandemic. While rationally, I know this episode would've been just as good if it had been episode 53 or episode 249, I'm excited to be joined by Frank for the special milestone. Our conversation with Frank Calderoni on the value of culture in the new future of work, the secret of building company character, and how Anaplan helps companies forecast in an uncertain world will be right back after this.
Speaker 3:
Whether it's markets, exchanges or networks, connection makes everything possible. The connection between data and technology, innovation and expertise, and most of all, between people and opportunity. For over 20 years ICE has transformed markets, products, and processes to make things work better, faster, smarter. From modernizing energy and commodity trading to revolutionizing the bond markets. Whether it's the world's largest stock exchange or the dream of home ownership, we do more than see the big picture. We create it. You may not know our name, but we bet you know our network. ICE, make the connection.
Peter Asch:
Our guest today, Frank Calderoni is the CEO and chairman of Anaplan NYC ticker P L A N. Previously, he served at as the CFO of Red Hat, Inc. Frank is a tech industry veteran with over 30 years of executive leadership at Cisco Systems, Q Logic, SanDisk and began his career with IBM. His recently released book Upstanding: How Company Character Catalyzes Loyalty, Agility, and Hypergrowth is out now from Wiley. Welcome Frank, inside the ICE house.
Frank Calderoni:
Thank you, Peter. It's great to be here and congratulations on your milestone.
Peter Asch:
Thank you so much. Regardless of where work is happening, character building, the topic of your book begins at home. What was life like growing up in the Calderoni home and how did your parents influence your own character?
Frank Calderoni:
So a great question, Peter. So I have to say, I reflect back on my childhood. It was a very rewarding experience. I'll start with my dad. My dad was an immigrant from Europe. He actually came through Ellis Island at five years old. His father came a year ahead of him to try to find a job in the US. And I think based on that journey, my father instilled in me the importance of really being grounded and the work ethic, to learn, to listen. And I've kind of followed that throughout my let's say childhood into my adulthood and then also my professional life. And I try to instill that with my children as well. The key thing is you work hard, you kind of focus, you do what you can do, you do your best and hopefully you get rewarded for that. I grew up in the New York area. I moved to California later in my career. I've had a chance to really explore so many parts around the world and the opportunities I've had through my professional career. And as I look back, I'm really thankful for the experiences that I've had.
Peter Asch:
And let's look back a little bit. So you attended college at Fordham and during that time you interned at IBM. And I think most of us have heard of Thomas Watson Senior's mantra, think. But you write about the impact that his son had on IBM's culture and also on you. How did you end up at IBM and how did your 21 years with the company shape your professional career and I believe also impacted your personal life as well?
Frank Calderoni:
As I was going to Fordham in New York and my later part of my education, I was looking for an internship and I was fortunate to get an internship over two summers with IBM. And I had not had previous experience with large companies and just business in general, but I wanted to have a career in business. And I learned a lot during those internships about IBM. At the time that I joined IBM was, I think it was number one, two, or three. It was in the top five companies, but it was growing very fast and it was really doing a significant amount of hiring.
Frank Calderoni:
And the key thing that I most cherish about the IBM experience, other than the global and meeting so many different people was the culture. And you just asked about Thomas Watson and so forth. I recall a big part of the culture was respect for the individual and that's lasted with me during the 21 years I was in IBM, of course, but even beyond that, in that an organization, a company, could really make an impact on individuals by having that level of respect for people in the organization and for each other. And that's as stood with me throughout my entire career.
Peter Asch:
One thing that stands out in the book is how much you learn from other business leaders. And that's something I think also started at Fordham. You worked as a reporter for the radio station interviewing some of the biggest names in business and politics. Who was the most interesting person you interviewed and what drew you to this journalism and now to write a book?
Frank Calderoni:
So initially I had an interest in journalism in general, and I was fortunate again at Fordham. The radio station WFUV is broadcast across the tri-state area. And it's widely listened to which I didn't know until I joined. And it gave me a wide variety of experiences. One, I was a dis jockey on the weekend playing rock music, which I never would've dreamed that I would be doing that. And then during the week, I became kind of a journalist, a reporter. I was kind of the business editor. And through that, I was able to start to engage in meeting business leaders and meeting politicians. And I had the fortune at that time, this dates me of course the mayor of New York city was Ed Koch and Bess Myerson who was a former Miss America was one of his assistants.
Frank Calderoni:
And I had a chance to meet the mayor and interview the mayor as well as to meet and interview Bess Myerson at the time. Also Jimmy Carter was president. So that's what dates me. Walter Mondale was vice president and he had come to town and I had a chance even to have a bit of a dialogue with Walter Mondale. Those experiences going through college have a major impact. I mean, I really didn't know much about the political landscape. So it gave me an appetite or interest from that standpoint. And I didn't know much about business and meeting business leaders and having a chance to do background research on them, so I can ask the right questions and not be embarrassed, really got me a great opportunity to listen and learn about business and about leaders. And that also has stayed with me throughout my career.
Peter Asch:
And is that where you really began to think about how their character played in their success?
Frank Calderoni:
The book Upstanding just didn't come about overnight. I found over the last 18 months during COVID an opportunity to reflect back being locked down, but also thinking about some of the interactions I've had at the radio station, at IBM, with business leaders, with politicians. I reflected on those experiences, and one thing that resonated with me a lot was character plays a substantial role when you think about culture and when you think about how do people get labeled as being upstanding, how do organizations get labeled as being good organizations? Because of the way they treat and respect and trust the members of those organizations. And so learning about those from, I would say individuals that I admired, I respected, allowed me to kind of take a lot of mental notes and even written notes over the years, and then compiling some of those learnings in a book to not only reflect back, but also to share with others as something that others can learn from, and hopefully develop certain leadership characteristics and organizational characteristics that are really strong when it relates to even the current environment.
Peter Asch:
Not every listener is going to be find himself in a leadership position. Certainly not most of them will be running a public company. But you also talk about your own personality traits, and you refer to yourself recently in a blog post as the introverted CEO. And I wanted to talk about that a little bit. You write about how introverted people must work hard to become effective communicators. This is something you experienced at Cisco while working with John Chambers. Can you share some of the tips that you've learned over your path from working your way up through the Cisco executive rank and then how you've now used that in blog posts and in the book?
Frank Calderoni:
So the first thing I would say is upstanding and strong character applies to not just leaders, it applies to everyone. Because you're always interacting with others, especially in the business world on teams and always leading and or coordinating some project or things like that. So I think it applies to everyone. I learned several years ago, Susan Kane has written a lot about introverts. She's an introvert and she's written some books about that. And I got a chance to meet her a couple of years ago and I really knew deep down I was an introvert, but reading her book and having a chance to speak and talk to her, allowed me to understand more about introverts. Either an extrovert or an introvert, there's no pro and con, I'm not saying one is better than the other. People are who they are, right? But knowing who you are and what you let's say prefer, and knowing that you want to also be successful, you have to learn other traits.
Frank Calderoni:
And so an introvert tends to be more let's say less of an outgoing communicator and in organizations, there is some advantage to being an outgoing communicator and someone who can relate to others. And my experiences, especially at Cisco allowed me to open up more about that, understand who I was and what I preferred, but also knowing that I can also learn other traits. At Cisco, it was always viewed, especially when you were a leader, that you had to be good at communication. And one of the things that Cisco is, we were sometimes scored on how well we were. And not having that as a strong trait, I made sure that I was going to counterbalance that by learning. And so I got a coach. I learned a lot from that coach. I experimented with being out on a stage, communicating, talking, engaging, and expressing your views.
Frank Calderoni:
Sometimes introverts tend to hold back on their views, but putting your views out there also goes a long way to get others to kind of open up and, and connect with you. And so with that coaching, with that ability and that push that I got at Cisco, John Chambers was one, a strong extrovert who loved to communicate. I learned a lot from him over those years and how I work with that today goes back to some of those learnings and ability to kind of develop those skills. So introverts can learn to be extroverts, extroverts can learn to be introverts, but you still go back to your core.
Peter Asch:
You took all of that learning and your experience taking, helping Cisco navigate the financial crisis to then join Red Hat, which is now part of actually IBM, where you started your career, but at the time was a very different culture than you had ever experienced. The CFO role is, is so much more than managing the bottom line. How do you view the role of the modern CFO and how did that prepare you to take on the CEO mantle at Anaplan?
Frank Calderoni:
So Peter, a couple things I would say about Red Hat, Red Hat's known as open source software, which as far as just in itself is open and collaborative and things like that. But they also known for their open culture where everyone is empowered throughout the organization to have a say, to be active and engaged. And that went a long way for me. Another one of those learning experiences, which I felt helped me beyond the respect for the individual. Allowing those in the organization to speak up and express their views really kind of goes a long way to allowing more diversity of thought and various other things that I think help build strong organizations. When I think about some of the things from that experience that came into Anaplan and your question about a CFO, a CFO does have a role of making sure the financials are what they are and sound.
Frank Calderoni:
But I think especially over the last 10 years, CFOs have been asked to do much more and to be broader leaders because to be effective, I think as a CFO, you have to know more about the business. You have to engage outside the financial organization and work with your business peers, and there's a connectedness of business processes into and out of the office of the CFO. And so if you can be more open, more collaborative, more engaging with others in the business, you can be much more effective. Having had that opportunity, I would say at Cisco, for sure and also at Red Hat, and even taking on some additional roles beyond just the CFO enabled me to develop skills that I felt helped me to position me into a CEO role, which I've clearly have been able to leverage further in the last four and a half years at Anaplan.
Peter Asch:
What about Anaplan attracted you and what was the opportunity that you took on?
Frank Calderoni:
The first thing that attracted me is the product. Having spent a couple of decades in either financial roles or operational roles and knowing the importance of planning, having information, and doing analysis and knowing that I had challenges to be more effective in that as well as a lot of my peers, primarily because of some of the tools and processes that really didn't exist to help facilitate finance professionals to really be great at what they do and others in the business. And I found that Anaplan was a gem from that perspective. And so as I learned more about the product and the platform and what it offered organizations, I felt this was something that I could really leverage the experience and kind of take it to a whole new level, not only for myself, but even with a lot of the customers and partners that Anaplan had in their ecosystem.
Frank Calderoni:
So that was number one. Number two, I would say there's three things. Number two, as I got to learn more about Anaplan, the culture was very enticing. It was somewhat in a positive way, very contagious. Very energized individuals that were so enthusiastic about what they were doing. It encouraged me to want to be part of it and build on the other experiences I've had in the past about culture and about just strong character and organizations. And then the third thing I would say, as I got more into it is that also continued to our customers. I mean, as I learned early on customers of Anaplan had that same level of enthusiasm, energy, excitement about what they were doing because the platform was enabling them to change their lives, how they were doing their job dramatically changed for the better. And they felt a sense of relief that they could do more, to be more value add to that organization and be able to contribute much more. And so all that combined made this for me, a perfect opportunity.
Peter Asch:
Let's zoom out a little bit, then go back to the overall book. You write about this term character like culture and how it catalyzes loyalty, agility, and growth, but what exactly is character like culture and how do you differentiate between those two words, culture, and character when you're talking about businesses?
Frank Calderoni:
So I think the word culture clearly has been around for the longest time. And there's been a lot of discussion around strong cultures and morale within cultures and so forth that what makes cultures unique, a good culture in order for character to work in an organization. But the way I would describe character is if I were to ask anyone to describe their character or describe someone else's character about a person, we can do that. And we're able to resonate with the qualities that come from the character of an individual. Rarely in the past, has anyone attributed those qualities to an organization. And so character led culture or character led organization is one where the organization has a sense of character, what it stands for and where that comes from is their purpose. That the organization has a purpose, something that becomes a north star that allows the members of that organization to understand and appreciate why they're there and what makes them not only just to have a job and to get a paycheck, but there's something that attracts them and that purpose attracts them.
Frank Calderoni:
Behind or underneath the purpose comes, values that substantiate. What are those true values that an organization has to help support that purpose? And then the third layer are the behaviors that support those values, that people in the organization follow through on those behaviors that people hold out as strong aspects of good, strong character that they try to adhere to, but they also are accountable to, but also hold others accountable to so that there's the right type of... Well, by the way, a value could be just being open or being transparent. And if someone is not transparent to call them out and say, by the way, Peter, in this situation, I don't think you really expressed your full view. I'd like to understand that better, if you would. So all that kind of comes together, what I would say is to build a character where an organization does stand up for those values, both internally, as well as externally.
Peter Asch:
In the book, you explain how character led culture has real world value. How has it helped sustain Anaplan's growth through its 2018 IPO and into the future?
Frank Calderoni:
I've seen, and it's really proven in external research that organizations with upstanding character have high levels of employee engagement, which in turn produces higher customer satisfaction. As a SaaS company, which Anaplan is, which is built on recurring revenue and the model that we have customers can unsubscribe at really any time. So if you have higher levels of customer satisfaction, it often leads to increased share of wallet within the customer. And we see that within Anaplan's customers, most of the engagements that we have start in department, but a majority of our revenue comes from existing customers, people who are having a great experience with Anaplan and they want more. And so therefore they want to continue to enhance the value that they're getting from Anaplan. That's the formula for successful SaaS companies, which is to get a customer and have them continue to expand their usage over time.
Peter Asch:
And that expanded usage then also requires expanded employee bases, which I believe you've almost doubled the number of Anaplan employees since 2018. When you're interviewing potential employees, how do you assess the and values they have, and to make sure it's the right fit for Anaplan's character led culture?
Frank Calderoni:
Our expectations, and our character woven into our job descriptions. And this helps people self-select if this is really the kind of company they want to work for. Some of the things that we do during the interview process, we have a person in particular on the interview team that's really dedicated to really looking at culture and fit. And that's paramount for the whole interview process. Once we get individuals on board, all new hires go through training. We have reality based leadership training. We help everyone understand and go through unconscious bias training. And we also do personality assessment. We use this program called Tilt 365, and this allows individuals to understand where their preferences are and how to work with others who may have different preferences.
Peter Asch:
After the break, Frank Calderoni, CEO of Anaplan and author of Upstanding: How Company Character Catalyzes Loyalty, Agility, and Hypergrowth and I discuss the new future of work and the central role, that character plays for companies and employees alike. We'll be right back after this.
Speaker 3:
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Speaker 5:
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Peter Asch:
Welcome back. Before the break, Frank Calderoni CEO of Anaplan, and author of Upstanding: How Company Character Catalyzes Loyalty, Agility, and Hypergrowth and I were discussing his leadership philosophies developed over his career, culminating and leaving Anaplan through a successful IPO in 2018. Frank, COVID-19 tested every company's culture. How did Anaplan leverage technology and the high level of employee trust that you nurtured to move into a fully remote environment? And as you're working on the book, did you ever consider naming it hAschtag being Frank?
Frank Calderoni:
Everyone over the past 18 months has been through a significant around the world amount of change and disruption based on COVID. I think initially as we first went into lockdown, all of us, probably first of all, thought it was going to be more short term than long term, but then as we quickly got into it, I think we felt, despite all the challenges, a level of resilience, right? Adjusting to that environment and making the best of it. And I think over the last 18 months, one of the things I learned myself personally, but also with the experience that Anaplan and with our customers early on is empathy, the importance of listening and learning and understanding personal situations and how those personal situations were disrupted, but that they have an impact to the professional. I think we all learned over the past 18 months that there's a tight correlation in the blend.
Frank Calderoni:
And I think as a result of that, I feel now, and I think going forward, organizations in general are going to have a higher regard and respect for that personal connection going forward. And I think as a result, organizations have become much more flexible and much more empathetic to what the personal, professional lines are and how best to make that. And I think as a result, they'll be better for it. I think also as I reflect back over the last 18 months, many of the social issues that occurred around the world also brought this front and center to show that people and their views were important within an organization and as well within the community and to be able to speak up and take positions and stands on those issues to move things in a better direction also was kind of front and center. And I think it's, again, a step forward for organizations that truly have character to be able to work on that.
Peter Asch:
Speaking of this remote environment, you talk about how character can be online or offline. How does that actually work in the real world, in company practice and policies?
Frank Calderoni:
When I say being offline, it's sort of like as an organization, I'm here to actually just do my job and just make a product and sell that product. And anything else is not necessarily relevant. So you can somewhat be somewhat, even partially offline. Being online means that you're going to be more aware that your business will be successful if other things are successful as well. And taking positions on behalf of your community, on behalf of your employees, on behalf of your business goes a long way. And so I think organizations again with strong character do tend to be more online. And as a result, they have better performance and they have a better ability to track people and people wanting to trust and be part of that organization as well as customers being attracted to that as well.
Peter Asch:
In a recent episode, Gillian Tett, Editor-At-Large of FT, explained that a movement ferments into a full revolution when change is in the best interest of the majority. That's a perfect explanation for what we're seeing with a full ESG revolution that has required every company to take their character fully online. The majorities of employees, customers, and other shareholders are holding companies accountable for their practices. How does this change the nature of business and how do you view a company's relationship with their stakeholders and even who a stakeholder is in the modern world?
Frank Calderoni:
So, Peter, I think that's a great question. I think over the past year, as we've all struggled with the pandemic and the resulting economic recession, there's been a complete rise in the awareness of social issues. And I think that's been right in front of organizations and I think it's put corporate character in the spotlight. Businesses, I found really can't sit on the sidelines anymore. They need to take positions on issues that some leaders will regard as controversial. Issues on social justice, Black Lives Matter, Stop Asian Hate, all of these are front and center. And in the era that we're leaving behind where part of being professional meant not discussing personal opinions, not related to business, I think those times are gone. Today, all leaders must embrace our ability to speak up on these issues and have the potential to marginalize or impair the lives of our colleagues and communities.
Frank Calderoni:
And so taking a stand always has its risks, but not taking a position is seen as even worse. And as I look at company character, it's making sure that we can take positions on these and making decisions because job candidates, particularly ones who share strong opinions on the environment, on social issues, and government topics are going to be looking for that when they select a company. And while this has been popular in Europe and Latin America in the past, I think today Wall Street has caught on, and now you are seeing investment funds and rating agencies, tracking company ESG metrics, and why? I think it's because companies with high ESG ratings produce greater long term returns.
Peter Asch:
And I think that's really important to drill in on, it's not just having the policy, but it's implementing policy. What are some of the strategies you recommend to foster inclusion and equity and belonging to the businesses that are going to need to attract employees as you mentioned, but also customers and be part of the community?
Frank Calderoni:
So first, character isn't a check the box. And I think organizations really kind of need to understand that. You can't just put those values on the wall. It has to be character led. It needs to be woven into the DNA of the company. And it starts by defining what kind of company you want to be. When I joined Anaplan four and a half years ago, and I wrote about this in the book, we had a great product, which customers love this, why I joined the company. But our culture really needed some work. So what we did is we involved our employees in defining what our culture should be. And we had 67% volunteering to participate.
Frank Calderoni:
Then we made sure that it's woven into everything we do, our decisions, our communication, our policies, our norms, our behaviors. I can't stand here and say, we're perfect, but I believe that we've defined a standard and we set the right expectations, which I think has gone a long way from a positive perspective within Anaplan. The second thing I think companies need to do is have empathy. This means listening, asking questions, seeking to understand points of view different from your own. And I personally learned a lot during the pandemic about what people were going through, which was different than my experience. And from that I learned a lot and hopefully each of our employees learned from others on that. And we've kind of moved the needle in a positive direction.
Peter Asch:
And as we wrap up, do you think we're entering this ultimate test of that character led culture? And are you concerned as remote work and different options become long term, not just a response to the pandemic that we lose something when we lose interpersonal connectivity?
Frank Calderoni:
So Peter meaning face to face is an important part of effective communication, but it's not the only way to really build character and culture. Character is driven by beliefs, but it's measured by your actions. For example how a company approaches working remotely really demonstrates its character. Do you really tell employees or do you give them a choice? And I think giving employees the choice, what works best for them and being very flexible, I think goes a long way. We surveyed our employees just a month and a half ago, and we found that 50% still want to work remote on a full-time basis. And clearly, as a software company, we can be flexible with their work arrangements. And we found that being flexible, opens us up to providing new labor markets for us and really attracting people who want to have that flexibility, whether it's part-time, full-time, different types of arrangements from that perspective.
Frank Calderoni:
So I think the key thing here is offering that flexibility and allowing people to bring their best selves to work in that remote environment goes a long way. The other thing I think is also important when you think about remote work, is to create the right atmosphere where people can also make those personal connections and whether it's through Zoom or WebEx, whatever it may be. And yes, you want to have that professional dialogue, but I think you also want to have the fun dialogue as well. So I've seen situations, we've had them in Anaplan where even remotely through video conference, having pizza parties, bringing groups together from different parts of the country, different parts of the world, have happy hours where they can celebrate accomplishments or really just kind of get to know people. I think this brings people together, it allows them to collaborate.
Frank Calderoni:
And I think even in their own social or personal environment, you get to learn so much more about people by looking at their backgrounds, their homes, other family members, their pets coming inside and out of the video, which I think goes a long way to giving a better sense than an office environment. We also found that it encourages more frequent communication with one-on-ones. I think it's easier to kind of get someone to communicate and interact with in a virtual environment. And I think also, finally, millennials are really comfortable online and whether or not they use video, whether they use different ways of collaborating like Slack channels. I even have my own CEO channel called Being Frank, which I use to share some of my top of mind with the employees on Anaplan on a regular basis.
Peter Asch:
Besides going out and buying your book. What is the final advice you'd have for our listeners on what the best way to build a character led culture?
Frank Calderoni:
So I think first is really take it seriously. Character helps attract talent and also contributes to your business success. And I think that's really critical. Also, it extends just beyond your employees or even beyond your employees to your customers, your shareholders, and they're paying attention to what you say and also what you don't say. To define your character, everyone should really play a role. It increases their buy-in. Don't dictate character. And then finally, it's important to listen, seek to understand, and also celebrate success.
Peter Asch:
Well, we are happy to celebrate some of the success of your book and thank you so much, Frank, for joining us Inside the ICE House.
Peter Asch:
That's our conversation for this week. Our guest was Frank Calderoni, CEO and chairman of Anaplan NYC ticker, P L A N. His book Upstanding: How Company Character Catalyzes Loyalty, Agility, and Hypergrowth is out now from Wiley. If you like what you heard, please rate us on iTunes so other folks know where to find us. Got a comment or question you'd like one of our experts to tackle on a future show? Email us at [email protected] or tweet at us at icehousepodcast. Our show is produced by Steffan Capros, production assistance from Ken Abel and Ian Wolf. I'm Pete Asch, your host off the library of the New York Stock Exchange. Thanks for listening. Talk to you next week.
Speaker 1:
Information contained in this podcast was obtained in part from publicly available sources and not independently verified. Neither ICE, nor is affiliates, make any representations or warranties express or implied as to the accuracy or completeness of the information and do not sponsor, approve, or endorse any of the content here in all of which is presented solely for informational and educational purposes. Nothing here in constitution offered to sell a solicitation of an offer to buy any security or a recommendation of any security or trading practice. Some portions of the proceeding conversation may have been edited for the purpose of clarity.
