EPISODE 251

Amanda Hindlian, Head of Capital Markets at the NYSE, Helps Pave the Path to Public

72 minutes · August 9, 2021

Companies going public on the NYSE these days are increasingly led by diverse leadership teams. They’re also seeking equally diverse ways of raising capital, whether by IPO, SPAC merger, or direct listing. Amanda Hindlian joined the NYSE after 19 years at Goldman Sachs to help them navigate that journey, a trip that ultimately leads to the iconic First Trade Bell on the NYSE floor. Amanda lays out what’s next for these firms completing the path to public ownership at the corner of Wall and Broad Streets.

Speaker 1:

From the Library of the New York Stock Exchange at the corner of Wall and Broad Streets in New York City, you're inside the ICE House, our podcast from Intercontinental Exchange on markets, leadership, and vision and global business, the dream drivers that have made the NYSE an indispensable institution of global growth for over 225 years. Each week, we feature stories of those who hatched plans, create jobs, and harness the engine of capitalism, right here, right now at the NYSE and at ICE's exchanges and clearinghouses around the world. And now welcome inside the ICE House. Here's your host, Josh King of Intercontinental Exchange.

Josh King:

The corner of Wall and Broad Streets during the pandemic could sometimes be a pretty quiet place. Yeah, the Exchange kept operating, except for that 9-week closure of the trading floor from March 20th through May 26th last year, but the usual thrum of outdoor activity ground to a halt. So, imagine the pleasure I took a few days ago making my usual walk here down Broadway when I'm greeted by a couple hundred athleisure attired fitness freaks, swaying to the rhythms of Steve Aoki, DJing an early morning workout, including student number one, A-list actor Mark Wahlberg. They were there to celebrate the listing of F45 training, that's NYSE ticker symbol FXLV, including Wahlberg and CEO, Adam Gilchrest.

Josh King:

There's also golfing legend Greg Norman and other investors capitalizing on the global trend toward wellness and healthy lifestyles. The trading floor was absolutely jammed. You never know who you're going to see when you walk into the New York Stock Exchange. That simple premise is what led us to launch this podcast some 250 episodes ago. Over that stretch of three and a half years, we've brought you inside the minds of founders and innovators, bringing their creations to market, and also the people driving this ecosystem, allowing capitalism to flourish, many of them, the leaders and executives of Intercontinental Exchange. One of our newer leaders is Amanda Hindlian, global head of capital markets of the New York Stock Exchange.

Josh King:

Like all companies here at ICE, team building is crucial to success and whether we're talking about sports or business, strong teams require a combination of homegrown talent and key ringers, with long established expertise and deep connections across the financial services industry, and that's Amanda. She joined ICE with a two decade track record at Goldman Sachs, that's NYSE ticker symbol GS. She's made an immediate impact here, helping the Exchange complete a historic first half of 2021, that saw listing and capital raising records smashed with more on the way.

Josh King:

Our conversation with Amanda Hindlian on what's next for the NYSE signs to watch for the capital markets continuing its momentum and her style in securing the next great listing that keeps our corner of Wall and Broad the center of innovation and opportunity. That's all coming up right after this.

Speaker 1:

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Speaker 3:

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Josh King:

Amanda Hindlian is global head of capital markets at the New York Stock Exchange. She works every day with founders, entrepreneurs, private equity firms, venture capitalists, and other leaders to bring new listings and innovations to the exchange. Previously, Amanda was partner and global CEO of global investment research at Goldman and served as president of the firm's think tank, the global markets institute. Amanda, welcome inside the ICE House.

Amanda Hindlian:

Josh, thank you for having me. It's my pleasure to be here today.

Josh King:

I used this awkward metaphor of the one team superstar suiting up for another squad in the intro like our home team quarterback, Tom Brady going to Tampa after 20 years in New England, and we know how that worked out. LinkedIn reminds us that you only played for Goldman Sachs out of Wellesley over 19 years and one month before coming to ICE. Given that you haven't had any firm changes in your career, what's it like to change companies during a pandemic?

Amanda Hindlian:

Great question. It is incredibly exciting, and there are also inherent challenges. From my perspective, one of the most amazing parts of being a member of ICE is the fact that this is such a results-oriented horizontal in nature, or a organization. There is this ability as you noted at the outset to really land instantaneously and to help drive change very quickly. And I have loved that about the past six months that I've been privileged to spend at ICE. I would say the pandemic proved challenging from the perspective of really getting to know the team, assessing the team. And we've been in growth mode, because the markets have been growing and therefore, our team has required expansion.

Amanda Hindlian:

Obviously, in any of those circumstances, at least it's obvious to me, I prefer to do face-to-face, face-to-face meetings, face-to-face interviews. I'd rather shake someone's hand and look them in the eye than do it over a Zoom. I would say that part of it has been more challenging. Nevertheless, the Exchange has been active and open now for several months. Much if not all of my team has poured back into these walls and are incredibly active. And they're just an amazing group of colleagues.

Josh King:

Face to face, I mean I think your period at Goldman spanned from the old headquarters at 85 Broad Street to the new home at 200 West Street, which I've been privileged to go in a couple times. And it is a mecca of the financial industry a gorgeous building, from the lobby up to the top floor. And that also was an incredibly inviting place to bring clients and people into, to convene some of those events that you and I know well, like talks or the exchanges podcast. But over the last six months, you've had to really do your work in front of a computer camera. What has that been like?

Amanda Hindlian:

An adjustment. You have to get quite accustomed to sitting for longer amounts of time. I think we've all had to learn and adapt to the idea of really trying to read a client, and understand what a client is focused on via camera, instead of face-to-face and eye-to-eye. And it's been a learning curve, but I feel like we're on the other side of that learning curve, because so many of us have gone through that experience and have figured out how to do it, and have I think in our own ways demonstrated that we can actually do it successfully and quite productively. So, that part of it, learning look we're here to make our clients happy.

Amanda Hindlian:

That's what we're here to do day in and day out, to advise them, to guide them, to make sure that they have a wonderful listing experience and an amazing long-term partnership with us. You really want to see the whites of someone's eyes when you have that conversation, but doing it over a camera, I think we've learned to do.

Josh King:

I mentioned the scene of F45 and the way it played out both on the floor of the Exchange with the investors and board members and the direct market makers finding the right price to open the stock, and also this crazy scene outside. And you and I were both in conversations about how to replicate that experience as best as possible, while we were still going remote and how to put people's faces up on the screen for the opening bell. Do you sense a real difference in how people appreciate what this exchange does, both in terms of the show that I talked about, but also in terms of the trading quality on the floor that they're now coming to see again how much it matters?

Amanda Hindlian:

I do. I think in person has been incredibly beneficial to the exchange, and the reason I say that is because these four walls are unparalleled in terms of having the building and the facilities themselves are this amazing mixture of historic art and other information, with incredibly modern cutting-edge, trading technology and technology throughout the entire building. I think it's different to talk about that than it is to see it in person. So, coming and actually visiting the Exchange or experiencing what it felt like when we had so many people outside and experience square, that is just incredibly exciting for I think clients and customers of the Exchange to see and to be here in person to experience.

Amanda Hindlian:

It's also a fairly intangible thing to talk about what a designated market maker does to a client. And I think having the client be here on the trading floor to see that it is an actual trading floor, that it's an active trading floor and to get to talk to the designated market maker, and see what the designated market maker is doing with the shares in the stock live on a screen, literally that is the night and day difference. Because as you said, most of the companies that we take public, this isn't what they do day in and day out. They don't think about trading day in and day out. It's not core to their business, nor should it be. They're disruptors, they're icons, they're innovators.

Amanda Hindlian:

They're focused on solving serious health problems on changing the climate, on evolving the world that we live in the way we play, the way we work, the way we eat. All of those things that we do, but trading fundamentally matters to them as they become public companies. It's really useful for them to see the NYSE difference in terms of the designated market maker in person.

Josh King:

Let's go back a little bit in your career Amanda. Even if there's only one uniform that you wore for 19 years at Goldman, you played a lot of different positions in a very dramatic time for that firm, three leaders with three different styles, Hank Paulson, Lloyd Blankfein, now David Solomon. Give us a little highlight reel from that year that you were on the rookie card as a semiconductor equity analyst through your progression to partner.

Amanda Hindlian:

Oh, that's a long sizzle reel, but I'll do my best. Wonderful firm, wonderful place filled with really talented, amazing people. I started my career at Goldman Sachs as you said as an equity research analyst, and I was focused on first semi-capital equipment companies and then semiconductor companies. And I was part of a team which was really amazing. I mean very small, very nimble. It was a brand new team when I joined.

Josh King:

How did you get pegged into that niche from Wellesley?

Amanda Hindlian:

I think it was about 30 interviews to land a job at Goldman and through that process, it's a bit like dating. You're looking for a fit and the firm is looking for a fit, and I found this amazing boss in a guy named Jim Covello. And Jim Covello and I worked together well really off and on over the course of my full 19, almost 20 years at the firm, but Jim was my first boss. And he came in to take over coverage of semiconductors and first semi-cap equipment and then later semiconductors. And I worked really closely with him to do that. We started as a 2-person team and with two people, what's so exciting about that is that you're in it.

Amanda Hindlian:

And I actually think one of the first things that Jim said to me was, "Oop, here you go, sink or swim." And about a year later, he said to me, "I'm really proud to say that you really swam for it." So, really amazing experience coming out of school and having the opportunity to do that. And one of the things that I think is really great about equity research in general is that you learn a lot of different things. You really get to understand what fundamental analysis looks like. You really get to understand how stock markets work and function. You have to think about bond markets and pricing. You worry about valuations. You think about investor changing appetites and demands.

Amanda Hindlian:

And you really have to flex both the quantitative side of your brain and your ability to sell a narrative to a client. It's an amazing launching ground I think for a career. Over time, I had a bunch of different managerial roles that I played inside of the firm, but one of the more differentiating elements of my career was that I got pretty heavily involved in helping not only Goldman Sachs, but also other financial firms respond to the financial crisis and in particular, the rules and regulations that were put in place following the crisis. And as a result of that work, where I was really focused with my team on the unintended economic consequences of new rules and regulations, I was quite often in the executive office of the firm.

Amanda Hindlian:

And I would spend time with the firm's most senior executives to brief them before they would go to Washington, to ensure they understood the dialogue we were having at the staff level, to make sure they understood the issues, concerns, positive things that we were uncovering in the work we were doing, and understanding how our business was changing and evolving over time. And as a result of those interactions I was eventually called and asked to work in the executive office directly with Gary Cohn, who was then the president and chief operating officer of the firm. It was the best thing that happened to me. I loved it. I moved up there and I had this really wonderful chance to see the firm across all of its businesses and to flex into solving different problems as they arose.

Amanda Hindlian:

Over time, I had oversight of the client strategy group within the office of the chairman. So, that really helped me dig into the capital market side of the business a bit more than I had previously, and I was fortunate to make partner. And after I made partner, I moved into investment research, which was always home for me at Goldman, and was really lucky to oversee the business as COO for several years. And I oversaw that business through a lot of change, and that makes it all the more interesting. The more business is changing, the more dynamic it is. Frankly, the more problems, the more interesting I think the job is.

Josh King:

You are the daughter of a prominent lawyer and your mom, an elementary school teacher who passed away earlier this year, how did Richard and Nancy prepare you and your sisters to strive and succeed in this new century?

Amanda Hindlian:

Well, it's interesting you brought up my mom, because she was a huge force in my life and I think the key thing I have two overachieving sisters, and I'm very proud of them. I think the key thing our mom taught us was you can do anything that you want to do, and I still have... She gave me a painting and literally it says beautiful girl, you can do anything. I still have that painting in my bathroom, and it reminds me every day as I'm getting ready to do whatever it is that I'm going to do that I can do anything and anything that I set my mind to, I can accomplish. And that was really a fundamental teaching from her.

Amanda Hindlian:

She also taught us to be strong and to be resilient, and that that strength and that resilience was something that would stick with us over the course of our lives. And I certainly value it in the period of her loss, because she gave me a lot of tips on how to be strong when going through that type of loss. And we miss her every single day. My father is a wonderful amazing man. He and my mother were together for 53 years. As far as he is concerned, there is no other woman who has ever walked the earth. And he refused to celebrate his 75th anniversary after my mom passed away because he said just he wasn't going to do it without her there, 75th birthday parted me.

Amanda Hindlian:

My dad has this incredible IQ, and we always made fun of him the poor man with four women in the household, but we always made fun of him because this man could not find ketchup in the fridge, even if it's in the outer layer of the shelf and it's staring him in the face. He couldn't put a piece of toast in the toaster, and push the button and watch everything work. And yet if you gave him any test under the sun, he would he would score at the Mensa level. He really taught us about intellectual curiosity, about the importance of constantly learning, and growing and stretching. He's a very self-taught man. If you asked him what happened in 1912 in ex-country, he would tell you.

Amanda Hindlian:

And that's not because he was taught, but because he's a very, very well-read person of his own accord. We've been blessed. We had two wonderful, wonderful parents. And like I said, we miss my mom every day. We're grateful that my father's still here to guide us.

Josh King:

The industry that you entered after those 30 interviews at Goldman out of Wellesley hasn't always put out the welcome mat for women Amanda. Did an all-women's college give you the kind of grounding that's helped you pave your path?

Amanda Hindlian:

Oh, unquestionably. It's funny, one of the things about Wellesley and I think women's colleges in general is that you never feel like you're an outsider in a room, because you're not. You could go into a mathematics course or an economics course, and it would be you and 30 other women in the classroom, which made it so that you could never possibly believe that women weren't predominantly doing economics or math. And it gives you this sense of belonging and sense of confidence and comfort, and this ability to use your voice and ask questions and be engaged. And I think that's served me incredibly well over the course of my career too.

Amanda Hindlian:

Now, there's also a sisterhood that comes from a place like Wellesley college and to this day, my best friends from Wellesley are part of my core group of people. They're my people. If I have a problem, I go to them. I know I can always trust fall into them.

Josh King:

Talking about the sisterhood in general, in one of your roles at Goldman Sachs as president of the global markets institute, the public policy, and corporate advisory research unit of the firm, part of your focus was on gender diversity in corporate America. Can you tell us why there are so few women in senior corporate leadership positions today, and how you were able to overcome that?

Amanda Hindlian:

There's a couple of factors as to why there are so few women in senior leadership positions. I think one of the largest factors is that women are systematically paid less for the same work than a comparably situated man. And what that means over time is that as family dynamics come into play, and the question of does somebody stay home with the children and if someone does stay home with the children, who might that be often leads to the answer that it should be the woman, because she's earning less. And therefore, it makes sense for her to be the one to walk away from her career. And sometimes when you walk away, it's very hard to re-enter the workforce, let alone to catch up and reach that level of seniority that you really want to see women reach.

Amanda Hindlian:

There's also an idea of downshifting and sorting. And I think the sorting can tend to be subconscious or unconscious sorting, but you'll often see within an organization that women either self-select, or are selected into lower paying roles. And that may be back office functions. It may not be frontline functions, and you'll see this across sectors because women choose to do different things than men on average. I never like to say anything that I view as a complete generalization. This is based on data and its averages. But on average, you're going to see far more women in the field of nursing, than you're going to see as medical doctors. That's one example, and nurses are fundamentally paid less than medical doctors are paid.

Amanda Hindlian:

That creates an uneven dynamic over time that becomes challenging. Within organizations, I think women either choose to downshift, or get downshifted sometimes because of the burden of work at home. And what the data show in terms of what actually happens at home is that still to this day, women bear disproportionate burden of the work that gets done on a daily basis. And it becomes a significant time sink for women over time. As a result of that, they may choose jobs that are less likely to put them in the running for the top spots, because it provides them with more flexibility, or they may find themselves inadvertently sorted into those types of jobs.

Amanda Hindlian:

I think it's really important for all of us to be very wide-eyed about the fact that that can and does occur, and to really ensure that we have a deep pipeline of women and other diverse candidates who have every equal opportunity to make it into the top seats. Mathematically, until that happens, you're not going to see a significant change in the numbers and terms of the economic power that women have and their ability to put their capital to work and to drive change with that capital.

Josh King:

I think we're going to get into how you drive change with that capital a little bit later in the second half of the program, but here we are Amanda in the library of the New York Stock Exchange. It's a little more than six months of what seems like as we were talking about earlier, this endless series of video calls. What was your impression of the NYSE while you were at Goldman, and what's the transition been like from the work of the investment bank to the work of the Exchange?

Amanda Hindlian:

Well, it's funny because I'm not sure I really realized it until I actually entered 11 Wall Street. But when I made partner at Goldman, the celebration for the partnership of my class was here at the New York Stock Exchange. I had a view of the New York Stock Exchange embedded in my head as being a partner to Goldman Sachs within the broader ecosystem, but I haven't really pieced together the why I viewed it that way, because I wasn't as capital markets leaning, as many people inside of Goldman Sachs are today. I viewed the New York Stock Exchange as storied, as tested, as a partner, as having an incredibly robust portfolio of listed companies, and having seriously withstood the test of time, which in banking meant something particularly after too big to fail had happened.

Amanda Hindlian:

So, that was my view of the NYSE. Getting here has only enhanced that perspective. I am so incredibly lucky every day to have the job that I have. I am so thrilled to work with these companies that are doing the most amazing and interesting things, and to have that chance to guide them through the process of going public and to serve as an advisor to them. And then to be there with them through the experience of the excitement of becoming a public entity, and then to ensure that they have a lifetime partnership with us that is rewarding to them.

Amanda Hindlian:

That, I didn't quite have as good of a sense from the outside, how wonderful that would be from the inside and how intellectually stimulating and engaging it would be, and all of the things that I would learn simply by being in touch with people who are disrupting everything around them, with new technologies, with new ideas, new ways of doing things. They don't view the world as existing in a preconceived way they view the world as being fundamentally capable of being altered, and that's just wonderful to get to see.

Josh King:

We're coming off this record-breaking first half of 2021 that we mentioned earlier in the show in the past few weeks, all the things that we've seen that you've seen on the floor show no signs of this letting up. The NYSE has been bustling with companies celebrating their first day of trading. It creates this energy that we haven't seen in this building since before the pandemic. As the head of capital markets and what you have to do, how does this affect your day to day? I mean give us a sense of what your day is like?

Amanda Hindlian:

It means a couple of things. One of them is my day is based around when clients are coming into the building in many ways. I always want to be able to greet a client in person when they come into the Exchange. I think it's important for them to feel the continuity of the experience of choosing to list with us, and then coming here and finding the person who may have over time been on the other side of a video screen, and occasionally is someone who they've met in person. I think that's really important. A lot of my day ends up being based around not only the opening bell for the markets, but the first trade bell, which is something unique to the New York Stock Exchange where the first time a company shares trade on the Exchange, they ring a bell to mark that moment in time.

Amanda Hindlian:

If I spent all of my day on the floor doing that, I would get nothing else done. I pop in and out all over the place, over the course of the day to say hi, to welcome people, to walk around, to maybe close a bell, be the host for a particular event or a bell, but I also have to go back and do the core work of managing the team, overseeing our pipeline, talking to clients regularly, answering any of their questions. It's just active and that is energizing in and of itself. Some days, there's so much excitement inside of the building that it's hard to calm down when you go home from work. It's hard not to feel the energy and the enthusiasm, and it's hard to switch off the light and say, "Okay, good night. I'm ready to rest."

Josh King:

Talking about overseeing that pipeline, I sat in on one of your pitches for an IPO prospect a couple of weeks ago. No matter the company, the pitch starts with these three ideas that founders have to consider when thinking about the rewards and responsibilities of going public. Number one, there's raising capital to reward stakeholders and accelerate growth. Two, there's sharing that success with the current shareholders, employees in the public and three, managing the new pressures and challenges that are unique to public ownership. Can you unpack each of those drivers as the decision of the founder to take the next step?

Amanda Hindlian:

Sure, absolutely. Look, choosing to go public is a serious decision, and it's serious because it's tremendous amount of work. And it can be an onerous process, depending on how prepared a company is, or is not to take that next step in their journey. And what we really try to do in that process is say to companies here are the things that you need to think about and consider. One of those things being, there's been a lot of innovation in the markets. There are a lot of different ways now to go public compared to what it looked like even five years ago, and what way may make the most sense for you. And it goes to that core notion of how are you unlocking liquidity for pre-existing shareholders?

Amanda Hindlian:

How much capital do you intend to raise, and do you need for your near-term working purposes? And what is it that you intend to accomplish by going public? Many companies will say we really want to reward employees by providing them with liquidity for private equity that they've accumulated over the course of ten years. And while we therefore could continue to stay private and the private markets are sufficiently deep for us to be able to do that, it's an important liquidity event for our people, and that's something that we want to be able to provide. And then once you become a publicly traded company, the requirements to remain so are onerous.

Amanda Hindlian:

And that is specifically that you have a lot of sec requirements around your financial disclosures, Sarbanes-Oxley, how your board is going to be comprised. You've also now opened yourself up to having investor interest in you, and that may be institutional capital. It may be retail capital, but that investor interest in the entity is also going to drive really important behavior for the company, both going into the IPO itself and after in whatever form the IPO takes. For example, we've talked a little bit about some of the elements of ESG as it relates to, for example, gender pay parity in corporate America, but the ESG market now has so much capital attached to it. It's somewhere between one and three and one and four dollars has an ESG mandate associated with it today.

Amanda Hindlian:

That is the public company, if ESG is not core to what you're doing today, it has to be part of your narrative and an important part that is measurable, and where your disclosures are aligned and you're delivering, probably within about a year of actually becoming a public company. We really try to make sure that any issuer that comes to us that's thinking about tapping the public markets understands, and those are just a handful of the various factors that are at play, understands those factors. Traditionally when a company is considering going public, they have many conversations with us before they get into the zone, where we're actually baking off for their final business, as the term would go in both banking and in terms of exchanges, where you're in the final round of trying to win the business.

Amanda Hindlian:

We have a regular ongoing dialogue with our clients long, long before that period of time.

Josh King:

There is this unique element of the New York Stock Exchange, too the accountability of the direct market maker, the human oversight over an active trading floor and the technology at play behind either the DMM post, or the machinery that runs underlying the Exchange. How has that message resonated with some of the people that you're talking to as they're thinking about that big decision that is fraught with so many other issues that you've just mentioned?

Amanda Hindlian:

It's a great question. One of the key differentiating factors for the New York Stock Exchange is the fact that we have those designated market makers and is the fact that they have heightened requirements to trade on our floor. And those requirements do not exist on any other exchange, and I like to describe it... I stole this from a team member who I think describes it really well, and all good ideas should be repeated. She said, "I think of the designated market maker like the alleys in a bowling lane. Your stock is the ball going down the lane. The designated market maker helps stay within normal bounds as much as possible, and they do that by committing their own capital."

Amanda Hindlian:

Sometimes if an order book doesn't look deep enough on the buy side, as an example, the designated market maker will put their capital to work to start buying some shares to balance out the book. That's a very unique role, and it's a unique role to the New York Stock Exchange. Explaining that however and the significant nuance that goes into that, it's not always the first most important, or interesting thing to an entrepreneur, particularly an entrepreneur that literally just focused about saving lives and has never thought about trading, and isn't sure how trading is going to affect him, or her in the future. So, ensuring that that the client understands that is probably one of our bigger uphill battles.

Amanda Hindlian:

But once it clicks and it usually does where the client realizes, "Okay, this is going to be fundamentally important to me because I will be measured on the performance of my share price over time, it will affect my ability to pay my employees, because some of it is likely to come in the form of equity compensation. It will affect my ability to raise fresh capital and at what prices." I think as companies digest that information and get a better understanding again over a period of dialogue, not only in consultation with us, but also with other advisors in the process, I think once it clicks, it really clicks.

Amanda Hindlian:

And they get that that is something that is truly unique and differentiated about the NYSE, that they're not going to get anywhere else. Now, we marry that DMM responsibility and the fact that that is a person, not just a firm, a person that's overseeing the trading of a company shares with best-in-class technology. You really get the best of all worlds. And from a technological perspective, I would say the New York Stock Exchange benefits really significantly from being a part of Intercontinental Exchange or ICE. Because ICE is unto itself, at least in my mind, very much a technology company, not just an operator of exchanges, not just an operator of clearinghouses, or the ICE mortgage business, but very much at core a technology company.

Amanda Hindlian:

And we've been able to benefit from that. In my mind, we get to bring the best of all worlds, the best of human oversight, the best of requirements that ensure that a stock is never left to flounder on its own, and the best of technology all combined into one.

Josh King:

I'm thinking of what you just said about the fact that everything that you just said is sometimes not foremost on the mind of founders, and sometimes the founders are thinking about their role in saving the world. We've had some incredible IPOs over the last few weeks, one that comes to mind is FIGS, this company that's founded by two women that makes much more comfortable clothes for people in the medical profession as they're on their feet 18 hours a day. Another that took the plunge a couple of weeks ago was Torrid, a women's apparel maker trading under the ticker symbol CURV with the Latina CEO, Liz Muñoz. When you were Goldman, you were focused on closing the gender investing gap.

Josh King:

I mean last year companies founded solely by women garnered just 2.3% of the total capital invested in venture backed startup in the US. The NYSE is built on this 229-year history of entrepreneurship and innovators that are helping to change the world. How are you using your role at the Exchange to help female entrepreneurs get their foot in the door and close the gap?

Amanda Hindlian:

It's hard, and it's an everyday battle, because that figure that you've cited at the outset is really something we should all be ashamed of. The allocation of capital to entrepreneurs should be relatively even to the number of entrepreneurs and to the business opportunities that they present. More than 2% of the entrepreneurial market is female. I think we should think about that as a group and as a society and say, "What are the things that we can do to help to narrow that gap?" That's not something we should view as sustainable, or be terribly proud of. What's great about being here is I feel that way. Now, I have the opportunity to help narrow that gap and to help widen the amount of capital that is available to entrepreneurs.

Amanda Hindlian:

And what's key about that is that where I sit, I'm at the intersection, not only of the issuers and the entrepreneurs who are looking to go public, but also the private equity firms, the venture capital firms and others who have backed those companies. They're very much a part of the process with us. We're very much in regular dialogue with those people, those firms throughout the process of taking any company public. You have the opportunity, and I take it to get on the phone with a big private equity firm for example and say, "Hey, have you heard about XYZ company that's doing something really interested and may happen to be in some way, shape, or form either women-led or diversity-led in some in some capacity?"

Amanda Hindlian:

I love the chance that I have the opportunity to make those introductions and to make those connections on a daily basis and I do. I take advantage of it, and I've seen really wonderful things come out of that. Now, FIGS was probably the probably the most exciting IPO I had done since getting to the Exchange up until that point. And hopefully, it remains in my top five. I think it will, but what was so special about it was that it was a 2-female co-founders, Trina and Heather who were just phenomenal. The head equity capital market banker is a woman I used to work with at Goldman Sachs, who I have a tremendous amount of respect for, the head of the consumer business within my team is a senior woman Stacey Cunningham, who runs the Exchange is a senior woman, and I'm a senior woman here at the NYSE.

Amanda Hindlian:

And that group of us six women really brought that deal together, not alone. There's a tremendous team around it. I would never discount that, but the excitement for the group of us to be together in a room, knowing that we were driving that difference and looking around and saying, "Wait a second, is what Ruth Bader Ginsburg said about when there's nine, it's fair? Did that just happen here in this room, but did we just have that moment?" And we did, and those moments, those times are special. And it really feels like, "Okay, I'm able, I'm really able to drive change here."

Josh King:

Apparel brands like Levi's, we did their IPO a couple years ago and in the last few weeks, FIGS, Torrid, they're hot, but there are so many other sectors. And I've heard you talk about them. As you look down the prospect list, what sectors are filling up the schedule of pitches in the weeks and months ahead?

Amanda Hindlian:

There's three broad areas, two of which I don't think will surprise anyone. The third of which I find mildly surprising. The two that I don't think are surprising, but continue to just remain incredibly robust are technology writ broadly and biotechnology writ broadly. And I'm happy to talk about it, but there are some significant advancements that we've made at ICE to make us more competitive in the biotech space, where we have historically had lesser share. And then the third area which is surprising to me the degree of activity and the depth of activity is consumer. It's not just FIGS, it's not just Torrid.

Amanda Hindlian:

There are so many different consumer companies in conversations with us about going public, that has been really interesting to see particularly in light of the pandemic. Because one would have thought that the first thing that would have happened would have been consumer spending would have fallen off of a cliff and consumer companies would have drowned, but consumer companies found a way to reinvent themselves, and to break away from being all bricks and mortar in some instances, and to really have tremendous brand loyalty. And particularly for any consumer company that has a mission associated with it, whether it's FIGS where the idea was why are we not treating these vital health care workers who have helped us through COVID, who take care of us when we're sick?

Amanda Hindlian:

Why are we making them wear the most uncomfortable clothing possible all day, every day and not feel stylish, not feel great when they go to work? Why are we doing that? It can be anything from that message to Torrid of we need to have clothing that fits women of different sizes. Everyone is not going to be a size four, everyone is not going to be a size six. Everyone can still be beautiful, and how do we make them feel that way? I think because so many of these companies have core missions behind them, they've gotten a lot of consumer brand loyalty, despite the economic factors and wins that are at play.

Josh King:

After the break, Amanda Hindlian, global head of capital markets and the New York Stock Exchange and I are going to walk through some of the conversations she's having with companies that are looking to go public that we haven't covered so far. That's all coming up right after this.

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Josh King:

Welcome back. Before the break, Amanda Hindlian, the global head of capital markets at the NYSE and I were talking about her career path that brought her to the Exchange, and some of the highlights in her first six months here at the corner of Wall and Broad Streets. Looking overseas Amanda over the past few weeks, we've welcomed several international companies to the NYSE, including Vetch's Stevanato Group and more, what are the trends you're seeing in terms of the types of global companies that are now looking to tap our markets, and why are they choosing the US?

Amanda Hindlian:

Well, let me start with the second part first because it's the easiest. The US capital markets are the most deep, most liquid markets in the world and therefore, trading here is more robust, it's more seamless. We also have very strong robust controls in place, not only for issuers, but also for investors. This country is still the center of capital markets in the world today, and liquidity begets liquidity. The more liquidity that we aggregate at the Exchange and in the US capital markets in general, the more sticky that liquidity becomes over time. In terms of what we've seen geographically, we certainly have been through some changes in China.

Amanda Hindlian:

And I would say it's an interesting dynamic, and the reason why I say that is because the Chinese regulators continuous to assess various industries in China and decide whether or not there are new reforms policies, or other steps that they want to take to change some of those industries. Simultaneously and concurrent with that, you've started to hear some noise in the US around whether we should be allowing foreign issuers from countries like China, where we may have a little bit more macroeconomic and geopolitical tension access our capital markets. You're not only seeing some hesitation and action being taken in China and some uncertainty associated with that, but you also have a little bit of hesitation and uncertainty on US shores as it relates to China as well.

Amanda Hindlian:

And I would expect that the culmination of those factors leaves China in a period of uncertainty at least for the next several months, particularly until we get a better sense of what regulations and policies might actually be put in place. Even as of today, the SEC just as one example that it's not about one country or another, has said that for Chinese issuers that are listed on the US who are subject to SEC disclosure requirements, now need to disclose that a regulatory review from China is a material risk. We're watching in a landscape that's evolving, and that is affected by political dynamics and geopolitical dynamics. That's certainly been an interesting thing to be a direct part of and to observe.

Amanda Hindlian:

I would say otherwise, we are seeing a lot of really interesting biotech and tech activity out of Israel. We are also seeing some activity come out of Russia, and that's been a very interesting dynamic to see. Brazil has been busy in terms of companies considering going public, but it's been a little bit slower in terms of the number who have actually pulled the trigger and decided to go public, but the dialogues there continue to be very, very robust. London and Europe more proper, we've seen a relatively steady flow of business from there as well. Canada's not small for us either. We get a lot of Canadian companies that either choose to do dual listings, one in Canada and one on the New York Stock Exchange, or that list entirely on the New York Stock Exchange.

Amanda Hindlian:

Global activity and the global element of my job is very real, and it's frankly one of the more fun elements, because you do get to not only be exposed to the brilliant minds and innovators that are doing disruptive work in the US, but you get to talk to them all over the world.

Josh King:

I want to go back to one of the issues that we really just touched on in the first half of the show was issues related to raising the bar and ESG. You talked about education and thought leadership, our board advisory council, the data and the tools that we offer, and the expertise and the advice that we give. You can't read an article about the current financial landscape without seeing ESG in the headlines. What are the issues that need to be front and center for a CEO arriving in the public markets for the first time as it relates to ESG?

Amanda Hindlian:

I think the first thing is to understand what ESG actually is, because there is no universal agreement as to what ESG is and what it means. I think spending time with various practitioners with different points of perspective, and obviously no CEO going through a public process has all of the free time in the world, but it's worth getting educated on the different perspectives around ESG. Because it's not just a question of socially what kinds of values are being implemented and observed within a company, or encouraged within a company. It's also a question of what are the climate effects and knock-on consequences of activities that companies do? How are they thinking about diversity of workforce, again from a social perspective?

Amanda Hindlian:

Sometimes, you look at basic governance issues, like how is it that the board should be engaged and behaving within a specific company? And this notion of being able to attract dollars because you're mission driven, or purpose-driven is so fundamentally important that companies do need to spend some time understanding it. Having gotten that background and getting a better sense of the broad perspectives on what ESG is, and we can provide that for clients, they'll get that from the investment banks that they eventually engage with. They'll get that from a number of sources, and they can study up on it themselves. I think the question then becomes very company specific.

Amanda Hindlian:

For example, if you're a mining company and you are a public mining company. You probably want to disclose how many mining accidents you have in a given year. You probably want to disclose that in a really clean, clear way because many investors are going to be looking at your disclosure relative to the entire peer group around you, and how safe are you there for compared to the peer group around you. That's going to be one thing that investors are going to look like, that's going to be company and industry specific. Another investor may say, "You know what, my entire mandate is about board diversity and that's really fundamentally where I care." So, any issuer that's public is going to be required to have an independent board of directors.

Amanda Hindlian:

That board of directors is going to have some form of demographic bent to it. The disclosure associated with that is going to need to be robust. What I like to tell companies is it's really helpful to understand the data once you understand all of the nuances of how people think about ESG. And the reason why it's helpful to understand the data is because fundamentally when we go back to the one and three or the one in four dollars that are associated with ESG spending, the provisioners of that capital are going to be looking at how you score. They're going to be looking at it from as much of a numeric perspective as they can possibly take.

Amanda Hindlian:

The fundamental challenge is that much of the data as it relates to ESG is not disclosed in a uniform format, although there have been some advances. And it tends to come from really disparate sources. We, and I'm very proud of this business, at ICE have built a tremendous ESG platform from a data perspective, where we are all ready for more than 3000 companies. Data mining to come up with the right information around what a company needs to disclose as it relates to ESG and has said publicly, so that investors can leverage that data and say, "Where do I want to allocate my capital?" And so that issuers can compare themselves to their peers and say, "How am I faring?"

Amanda Hindlian:

And if I think my industry is evolving over time and there's an industry that's doing it better, what are the lessons that I can learn from them? That business for us is a really value-added element of becoming a member of the New York Stock Exchange, because we provide access to that data as simply part of being a listed company the provision of that data and the cost associated with that data anywhere else is exorbitantly expensive. I think it's a real value-add of being part of the NYSE community and a really important value-add from ICE proper.

Josh King:

And then if they're not faring as well as they should be perhaps in the area of corporate governance and board makeup, we even have tools to help them source and look at really diverse candidates to fill out their boardroom with the board advisory council.

Amanda Hindlian:

A hundred percent. We have exactly as you said gathered together 20 CEOs from listed companies across various sectors with different levels of experience and different perspectives, including the CEO of my alma mater, David Solomon. And that group of 20 executives gets together regularly to provide to us at the Exchange a list of diverse vetted board candidates. When a company is thinking about going public and they begin to engage with us, one of the things we say to them, and this goes back to your original question of really trying to drive change is, "Okay, well how can you help us reach the board demographic requirements that we want to see?"

Josh King:

That your investors want to see too.

Amanda Hindlian:

They want to see it because their investors want to see it. They want to see it, because they get better business outcomes when they have a more diverse board. They want to see it because the faster they can knock senior women who are qualified and there are many of them into the top spots, the faster they're going to be able to drive change. We literally do that. We have a database, we maintain it. We connect companies to that database. We sort that database. I had last week a former partner from Goldman Sachs who's now on a number of boards came to the Exchange to say hi to me and to do a visit. And I sat there the entire time saying to her, "I've got three other companies that need you, and let me put you in contact with them," because she has a very unique background and experience that would be valuable.

Amanda Hindlian:

We not only do it from the perspective of maintaining a database and using that board advisory council to vet and pull together candidates, but we do it from the perspective of thinking about it all, day in and day out of where do I make these connections to help facilitate progress.

Josh King:

And then after the progress has been facilitated, there is the nitty-gritty of running a business and dealing with investors. And for that, we provide this suite of IR tools that get the company ready for its first earnings call after the IPO. There's the IR website, webcasting, the whistleblower hotline and the like. In your experience, what are the growing pains of going from that private company to being a public company?

Amanda Hindlian:

I think the number one growing pain is any management team that thinks that they can do it without a really strong head of IR. And the problem today, it's a high-class problem, but it's a problem is that so many companies have gone public. There's actually a dearth of IR talent in the market today, and I think it's incredibly important to have. Because from the moment that you go public, your shareholders suddenly become a primary constituent to primary stakeholder of what it is that you're doing day in and day out. No public company CEO wants to manage the shareholder base on his, or her own. It's too much work and they therefore couldn't focus on the business, which is what they should be doing.

Amanda Hindlian:

Having a really strong IR presence helps companies deal with that real hurdle of going public for the first time. And some of the tools that we have are also intended to provide that IRO with more ease to make their job easier, faster, more efficient as they too come out of the gate, helping the company be public for the first time. You mentioned the whistleblower hotline, which is the Sarbanes-Oxley requirement.

Amanda Hindlian:

You mentioned the toolkit that we provide from the perspective of putting together an IR website, but one of the other really more interesting things that we do is help companies understand market surveillance data, so that they can see movements in and out of their stock over time and get a better sense of where are they gaining traction with shareholders, and where are they losing traction with shareholders. And although the data are slow and it has nothing to do with us processing the data, or any other provider processing the data, it's just simply a reflection of the regulatory requirements around when data get reported, disseminated, and disclosed.

Amanda Hindlian:

Having access to that information is nevertheless really helpful for companies and seeing underlying trends and shifts in their shareholder base. Is it going from value to growth? Why would that be? Is it going from growth to value? That would be even more interesting why would that be. Are you starting to see activist shareholders come into your stock? Well, that would be a very significant flag that you would certainly want to know as a public company. Those are some of the tools, just a few of the tools that we put at the hands of new companies. And we help them, we guide them, we ensure that they're set up and comfortable, and have as much access as they need, but again I think it's just a really important part of being a public company.

Amanda Hindlian:

IROs in my opinion are undervalued they're special, special citizens within the C-suite.

Josh King:

And at least a good employment opportunity for that community as well. Talking about communities Amanda, you talked about the sisterhood of Wellesley, you've talked about the alumni network of Goldman partners. There's this other community of 2300, or some odd listed companies here at the New York Stock Exchange. And if you are FIGS and you're trying to sell to a large hospital chain, or you're trying to sell to another great buyer of uniforms and apparel, but just think of generally what this community represents. When you're in the room with a company that is thinking, well should I join this club or not, how much does that community weigh on them?

Amanda Hindlian:

The community is a significant factor. It's a tangible factor, and it's a factor that companies can really understand and wrap their arms around. It's just as differentiated as our trading model, but it's easier to get. And it's easier to show companies prior to the actual listing experience, because we'll have many issuers that come to us and say, "We are having trouble getting traction with X entity and X entity is NYSE listed." We likely have a very strong relationship with that company. We are very likely to be able to facilitate a conversation between the issuer that's looking to do new business with that NYSE listed company, and we see a lot of results off of the back of that.

Amanda Hindlian:

Unlike the trading model where the company doesn't really see it and grasp it tangibly until the listing day itself, the value of the community and the connections that we're able to make in that community, so that companies can grow their business, expand their businesses, learn from other companies that have gone through similar expansions, we make those connections daily as well. Now, the interesting thing is that's not so much on my team. There's a separate group led by a wonderful colleague of mine Chris Taylor. They're focused entirely on ensuring the robust listing experience of companies once they've come to the Exchange. Chris and I obviously work arm in arm, hand in hand to ensure that every issuer that works with the NYSE feels as happy as they possibly could about the experience.

Amanda Hindlian:

But Chris and his team, I could call Chris on any given day of the week and say, "I've got this X company. They really think that they have a product they should be selling into one of our listed companies, and they can't get their foot in the door. Can we facilitate a conversation?" And Chris will come through and we'll have that dialogue.

Josh King:

Another thing that's a little easier to get than the NYSE floor model is marketing. It's often such a major consideration for companies in deciding which exchange to choose as they go public. What are you hearing from companies about their marketing goals for their major milestone of that listing gig?

Amanda Hindlian:

It's such a particularly important and momentous milestone for founders, founder-led companies where someone's put their blood, sweat, and tears into building a business out of their garage into what it is today. And we all know that so few businesses actually survive from being small companies, let alone make it to the point where they're able to become public entities, that the celebration around that moment of having reached that scale, reach that level of confidence from the investor community going through the hard process of getting ready to and going public, that's just an incredible celebration for companies. And I think at the New York Stock Exchange, we do a really unique job of making sure that companies get everything out of that celebration that they want.

Amanda Hindlian:

Some companies come to us and they say... and FIGS is actually a great example we should hearken back to that. FIGS came back to us and said, "Look, what we do is we help health care workers. We've all been through COVID. In fact, we continue to go through COVID, and we want to honor and celebrate those health care workers." And FIGS calls them awesome humans which I love. They said, "We would like to do an outdoor, morning, daybreaker rage, a sober rage and we want to do it outside of the Exchange. And we want to open it to the medical community." And I said, "Sure, let's do it, let's jump in head first and let's do it." And it was amazing.

Amanda Hindlian:

I've never seen people having more fun, and people who frankly have worked so hard, have been in such risk, have been in such harm's way and have sacrificed so much to see that moment where FIGS says, "Our priority is celebrating you, awesome humans. It's not about celebrating us, and we're going to create an experience around our listing that honors the work that you've done, and really take care of you. That's one of those awesome moments that you'll see at the New York Stock Exchange that you're not going to see anywhere else.

Josh King:

And then there's that experience too like FIGS, F45 Adam Gilchrest put his blood, sweat and tears from Australia in that business for all those years, and one of his investors happens to be Mark Wahlberg. Mark shows up to the floor and he is a magnet for lo and behold, Jim Cramer, Carl Quintanilla and David Faber of CNBC's Squawk on the Street. They wander from their place on post nine and lo and behold, they have this 8-, 10-minute conversation about all the benefits of F45 and generally the healthy lifestyle. You don't get that kind of a promotion in that a moment in that setting against your stock going public anyplace else.

Amanda Hindlian:

A hundred percent, and we have over 30 media outlets as you know better than anybody else just sitting on the floor. What that means is the moment you come into the trading floor and you're within this building, you are within the access of as many points of distribution of your message as humanly possible. It's a unique unparalleled experience. There's no day like an IPO day and look, a lot of credit goes to the fact that we have a really brilliant marketing team here. And we work together day in and day out. Sarah Murphy is the head of marketing here at the New York Stock Exchange.

Amanda Hindlian:

Sarah and I are basically tied at the hip, and we do everything we can together to ensure that whatever vision a company has, whatever it is that they want to get out of that listing day, they're going to get and they're going to leave having a wonderful, wonderful experience.

Josh King:

Whatever form that listing day takes, there are now so many different options for companies as they consider going public. They have such great choice, IPOs, direct listings, SPACs. Is there a certain company profile that fits each of these options, and what advice do you have for founders trying to choose the right path to the public markets for their company?

Amanda Hindlian:

It used to be that it was the traditional IPO or M and A. It was two tracks. Now, you have the traditional IPO, the other side of the SPAC which is the business combination. You have traditional M and A which is outside of our remit, but still sits there as an option for companies. And you have the direct listing, and you have the direct listing, plus a capital raise. The direct listing is about unlocking existing liquidity and capturing share price upside on that first day of trading. The direct listing with a capital raise is about that, but it's also about adding additional capital to the balance sheet. The direct listing of the capital raise hasn't happened yet.

Amanda Hindlian:

However, the broad outlines in order to be able to have one are in place, and we are in what I like to say the bended knee, here's my wedding ring, will you take it engagement stage with many companies on whether that's something that they want to walk all the way down to the altar with us on. The direct listing is something that's a really interesting opportunity for companies that tend to be fairly well capitalized, but may have longstanding employees and/or longstanding investors that are looking to unlock liquidity, and would like to be able to sell their shares. And they'd like to be able to do so at a market clearing price. The direct listing without a capital raise is wonderful for them, and we've done the vast majority of those here at the New York Stock Exchange.

Amanda Hindlian:

Our designated market making model, the fact that we have those traders here to decide when to open the direct listing, because it's structured differently from a traditional IPO. There is not a stabilization agent. It's not going to be a fully bought deal. That added layer of insurance and protection that we have here has made us expert in that particular field and trading elsewhere with the direct listing, induces a lot of risk for companies. I think the more interesting dialogue where it's a little bit closer comes between traditional IPO, versus de-SPAC process or business combination.

Amanda Hindlian:

And it used to be that the de-SPAC process was so much faster than the traditional IPO route, that many companies thought, "You know what, let's save time. We're ready to go to market. Let's do a reverse merger with a SPAC, maybe we raise the pipe and we go public. And we're happy and we're done and we're ready to go, and we're listed and our shares are publicly traded." The SEC has slowed down that approval process for SPACs. Some guidance from the SEC has slowed down SPAC issuance too unto itself.

Amanda Hindlian:

And frankly, the number of SPACs that are in the market relative to the companies that are ready to go public has changed over time, such that now there are roughly 400 SPACs out in the market looking to do a business combination, and many of them will tell you to use the wedding analogy again that they've been taken and left at the altar more than one time. As the supply of available ready-to-go public companies diminishes, as more and more business combinations happen, and that demand for business combinations remains strong, I'm not clear that it's that much faster than the traditional IPO process used to be.

Amanda Hindlian:

And it becomes a much more nuanced conversation about which approach may make the most sense, and it'll usually come down to who is the SPAC that's interested? How large is the pipe offering? How much capital has the SPAC raised? Are they really well-regarded sponsors from the SPAC perspective? I think those elements start to come into play a lot more now today, versus a year ago when I would say it was just fundamentally true that it was faster to go to market via a de-SPAC or a business combination, than to do a traditional IPO. Eh, I think that's slowed down a bit, and more nuanced dynamics are now at play.

Josh King:

Putting it all together, putting everything that we've talked about together, it's not lost to me that I am finding myself binging on hours upon hours of Olympic coverage from Tokyo. Vizio founder and CEO William Wang says, "An IPO at the NYSE is an Olympic podium moment, an Olympic podium for the entrepreneur." What is it exactly that makes this process, this moment so special?

Amanda Hindlian:

It is the culmination of so much work for the entrepreneur, in the same way that anyone who is an Olympic athlete has trained for 16 hours a day, not rested, given up many things in their life that they otherwise would have loved to have had and been able to do, but has really focused on this one particular goal, the success of the outcome for them in the Olympics. It's the same parallel for the CEO, the entrepreneur, the founder. They've worked their butts off. They have invested so much time and effort in these companies to take them public. They've sacrificed on the other side of that in order to be able to do sometimes financially, sometimes in terms of time.

Amanda Hindlian:

Sometimes, they've funded the company with their 401(k) plan to get it started off the ground and therefore, that moment when the entrepreneur gets up on the podium and rings the bell, or rings their first trade bell is very equivalent to, it's tantamount to the moment when an Olympic athlete gets up and accepts the gold medal. You did it. You beat the odds, and the odds are not in your favor in any of these sports, or in anything that's really hard to do. And these are things that are hard to do. It's hard to win the Olympics, it's hard to take a company public. When you know something is hard to do and you've crossed that finish line, it's a truly celebratory momentous moment. And that I think is why those two things feel in many ways very similar.

Josh King:

As we wrap up Amanda, over the next couple of months, years, was the NYSE going to maintain and extend its leadership in IPOs and continue to focus on winning the major listings, capturing the gold medal day in, day out?

Amanda Hindlian:

Well, we have an amazing team in place today, and that amazing team is ready set gearing up, and we'll be conquering over the next years to come. We also I think are going to continue to be at the center of innovation. We led the direct listing. We're going to re-lead the direct listing with a capital raise. We're going to continue to talk to companies that are doing cutting edge things and partner with them. And we're going to continue to drive the business in a growth oriented mindset. We're never going to take away from the importance of the core element of the celebration of that Olympic moment in and of itself, but we're going to do a lot of other things around it to help more people get to have that Olympic moment.

Amanda Hindlian:

And I think that's really important ensuring that we're democratizing access to capital markets for as many companies who are ready to get there as possible, ensuring that as many of them have the chance to get on that podium. That's our goal.

Josh King:

Well, Amanda Hindlian, and it's 3:00 and then you already have three or four more bake offs to go before you get to finish this day, so thanks so much for passing by the library, sitting down with us at the New York Stock Exchange inside the ICE House.

Amanda Hindlian:

My pleasure, thank you for having me.

Josh King:

And that's our conversation for this week. Our guest was Amanda Hindlian, global head of capital markets at the New York Stock Exchange. If you like what you heard, please rate us on iTunes, so other folks know where to find us. And if you've got a comment or a question you'd like one of our experts to tackle on a future show, email us at [email protected] or tweet at us at icehousepodcast. Our show is produced by Kearney Ferguson and Pete Ash with production assistance from Ian Wolf and Ken Able. I'm Josh King, your host, signing off from the library of the New York Stock Exchange. Thanks for listening, talk to you next week.

Speaker 1:

Information contained in this podcast was obtained in part from publicly available sources and not independently verified. Neither ICE nor his affiliates make any representations or warranties, express or implied as to the accuracy, or completeness of the information and do not sponsor, approve, or endorse any of the content herein. All of which is presented solely for informational and educational purposes. Nothing herein constitutes an offer to sell, a solicitation of an offer to buy any security, or a recommendation of any security or trading practice. Some portions of the preceding conversation may have been edited for the purpose of length or clarity.

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Information contained in this podcast was obtained in part from publicly available sources, and not independently verified. Neither ICE nor its affiliates make any representations or warranties, express or implied, as to the accuracy or completeness of the information and do not sponsor, approve, or endorse any of the content herein, all of which is presented solely for informational and educational purposes. Nothing herein constitutes an offer to sell, a solicitation of an offer to buy any security, or a recommendation of any security or trading practice.